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Title: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 19, 2010, 10:28:27 AM
From: ANN Bulletin, October 19, 2010

"Separately on Tuesday, the denomination's Executive Committee asked Florida pastor Derek Morris to serve as editor of Ministry Magazine, the church's international journal for clergy of all faiths. Morris, who has yet to formally accept the position, would replace Nikolaus Satelmajer, who served in the position since 2005 and last month announced his retirement.
"Morris, who currently serves as senior pastor of Forrest Lake Adventist Church in Apopka, Florida, holds a Doctorate of Ministry in Practical Theology from Andrews University and a Doctorate of Ministry in Preaching from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Ministry has previously published his articles, many focusing on effective biblical preaching."

For info about Derek Morris & Spiritual Formation see:
<www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-S/Spiritual-form.pdf >

restoretruth
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 19, 2010, 11:00:05 AM
From: ANN Bulletin, October 19, 2010

"Separately on Tuesday, the denomination's Executive Committee asked Florida pastor Derek Morris to serve as editor of Ministry Magazine, the church's international journal for clergy of all faiths. Morris, who has yet to formally accept the position, would replace Nikolaus Satelmajer, who served in the position since 2005 and last month announced his retirement.
"Morris, who currently serves as senior pastor of Forrest Lake Adventist Church in Apopka, Florida, holds a Doctorate of Ministry in Practical Theology from Andrews University and a Doctorate of Ministry in Preaching from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Ministry has previously published his articles, many focusing on effective biblical preaching."

For info about Derek Morris & Spiritual Formation see:
<www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-S/Spiritual-form.pdf >

restoretruth
This is scarey. Unless Morris has publically renounced Spiritual Formation, he should never be placed in such a position of influence. It has been several years since Morris was teaching at Southern. He is at the Forest Lake church and is on TV almost every day it seems, but does anyone know if he still teaches and promotes Spiritual Formation? This is a significant question since Ted Wilson mentioned Spiritual Formation in his initial sermon as something that does not belong in our church.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 19, 2010, 11:26:26 AM
Satan is no fool, he's trying his best to put his tools in positions where they will do the most good to deceive. Example: La Sierra.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on October 19, 2010, 11:46:37 AM
I think I read somewhere that Morris was asked if he still "believed in" Spiritual Formation, and he denied that he did. 

I don't recall if he said why he changed his mind on it.  Perhaps he got too much flack.

Let's pray that he genuinely has forsaken this dangerous discipline.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on October 19, 2010, 12:24:17 PM
I think I read somewhere that Morris was asked if he still "believed in" Spiritual Formation, and he denied that he did. 

I don't recall if he said why he changed his mind on it.  Perhaps he got too much flack.

Let's pray that he genuinely has forsaken this dangerous discipline.
I'm glad to hear this!!  Thanks Vicki
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 19, 2010, 12:48:45 PM
I would certainly not put someone with his knowledge and learning of spiritualism in a position like a magazine editor just on his word that he's "converted". It's just too dangerous of a thing to do. We don't need another Spectrum or AT.

He must prove his word of conversion by many years of trial and being constantly watched. Words are cheap. This is how so many leaders in our faith have erred and put apostates into influential positions. Only on judgment day will the cost of souls be known that these apostates have condemned to destruction.

Especially in a time when there is a great division leading to the shaking already happening. We must up the smarts factor by much prayer and not be further deceived. The time is overpast when we must put our foot down and say a definite NO to certain things and stop being so politically corrected.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 19, 2010, 01:56:28 PM
I would certainly not put someone with his knowledge and learning of spiritualism in a position like a magazine editor just on his word that he's "converted". It's just too dangerous of a thing to do. We don't need another Spectrum or AT.

He must prove his word of conversion by many years of trial and being constantly watched. Words are cheap. This is how so many leaders in our faith have erred and put apostates into influential positions. Only on judgment day will the cost of souls be known that these apostates have condemned to destruction.

Especially in a time when there is a great division leading to the shaking already happening. We must up the smarts factor by much prayer and not be further deceived. The time is overpast when we must put our foot down and say a definite NO to certain things and stop being so politically corrected.
Well, here I go again---I leave one forum because of the bashing of those who try to work to bring understanding---who just would be good enough,, to carry the SDA Church into the Kingdom of God? Will no one be correct enough to please the righteous of our denomination? For years I have listened to terrible things being said about the Church, this forum as well as others, the SDA religion as a whole, and everybody involved in the choosing of our new President.  Now I am hearing it again. I guess that the best thing to do is for all of you to go directly to Pastor Morris instead of simply wondering if this is all true. Let him tell you what you may or may not want to know.  Everyone who reads this forum will be talking about it --The truth needs to be told in the beginning instead of everybody wondering. The answers should be directly had.  Yes, I am again reminded that words are cheap. 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 19, 2010, 02:54:11 PM
Well, here I go again---I leave one forum because of the bashing of those who try to work to bring understanding---who just would be good enough,, to carry the SDA Church into the Kingdom of God? Will no one be correct enough to please the righteous of our denomination? For years I have listened to terrible things being said about the Church, this forum as well as others, the SDA religion as a whole, and everybody involved in the choosing of our new President.  Now I am hearing it again.  It is a shame. Sorry.
El, I understand your pain in hearing about these things. It pains and saddens me also. However, as individuals and as a church, we face problems because the warnings that EGW gave us concerning the dangers that the church will face from the inside as we appraoch the Second Coming have not been half heeded. She warned that the church would appear as about to fall but it will not fall. As I recall her statements, this will be primarily or at least partly because of internal problems.

Spiritual Formation was invented by Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Roman Catholic Order of  Jesuits. As you know, he Jesuits were founded to overthrow the Protestant Reformation. They have succeeded. The Reformation is, for all practical purposes dead, except of our denomination and possibly a few sub groups of mainline churches. Spiritual Formation consists of certain procedures, including a kind of meditation and guided imagery and placing oneself in subjection to a spiritual guide. It is a form of spiritualism. This has gradually crept in to many Protestant churches and has entered the Seventh-day Adventist church. Dr. Morris was active in promoting and teaching this in our denomination, particularly at Southern Adventist University. I read material that he wrote in which he stated that we can learn a lot from the Jesuits.

Part of what has allowed things like this to flouirish in our church is that  the membership have no idea what Spiritual Formation is and are clueless as to its dangers. The same is true for other errors that have crept in. The pastors seem to be in the same boat. Ignorance is not bliss when Satan is allowed to plant his banners within the church. We need to speak out against error whenever we can. To sit back and say nothing when error is being taught is just as bad as teaching it ourselves. This culture of "political correctnesss" has permeated the church and people seem to feel that we should never say anything even if we disagree with waht is going on. We do not want to be labled as divisive, or  trouble makers. Sometimes we have to stand for truth. It will encourage others. i believe that we are even now being tested with smaller things, (allthough I do not concider this to be a small thing) in preparation to much bigger tests in the near future. If you haven't noticed, it seems as though it may start getting uncomfortable to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Especially if we want to spread the 3 angels' messages.

It is important to know where Dr. Morris stands on this issue at this time. The fact that he taught this publically in the past seems to me should require a public statement that he has renounced it. If he has made such a statement, I would like to see it.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 19, 2010, 09:21:01 PM
El, I understand your pain in hearing about these things. It pains and saddens me also. However, as individuals and as a church, we face problems because the warnings that EGW gave us concerning the dangers that the church will face from the inside as we appraoch the Second Coming have not been half heeded. She warned that the church would appear as about to fall but it will not fall. As I recall her statements, this will be primarily or at least partly because of internal problems.

Spiritual Formation was invented by Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Roman Catholic Order of  Jesuits. As you know, he Jesuits were founded to overthrow the Protestant Reformation. They have succeeded. The Reformation is, for all practical purposes dead, except of our denomination and possibly a few sub groups of mainline churches. Spiritual Formation consists of certain procedures, including a kind of meditation and guided imagery and placing oneself in subjection to a spiritual guide. It is a form of spiritualism. This has gradually crept in to many Protestant churches and has entered the Seventh-day Adventist church. Dr. Morris was active in promoting and teaching this in our denomination, particularly at Southern Adventist University. I read material that he wrote in which he stated that we can learn a lot from the Jesuits.

Part of what has allowed things like this to flouirish in our church is that  the membership have no idea what Spiritual Formation is and are clueless as to its dangers. The same is true for other errors that have crept in. The pastors seem to be in the same boat. Ignorance is not bliss when Satan is allowed to plant his banners within the church. We need to speak out against error whenever we can. To sit back and say nothing when error is being taught is just as bad as teaching it ourselves. This culture of "political correctnesss" has permeated the church and people seem to feel that we should never say anything even if we disagree with waht is going on. We do not want to be labled as divisive, or  trouble makers. Sometimes we have to stand for truth. It will encourage others. i believe that we are even now being tested with smaller things, (allthough I do not concider this to be a small thing) in preparation to much bigger tests in the near future. If you haven't noticed, it seems as though it may start getting uncomfortable to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Especially if we want to spread the 3 angels' messages.

It is important to know where Dr. Morris stands on this issue at this time. The fact that he taught this publically in the past seems to me should require a public statement that he has renounced it. If he has made such a statement, I would like to see it.

  Why does not someone in a responsible position on this forum write to Dr. Morris so that he will at least be asked to give a proper statement as to what he believes about Spiritual Formation. If that is what is troubling the moderator perhaps he will be glad to set the record straight. I would very much like to see what he has to say about the subject.   I have not had the feeling that I am uncomfortable to be a Seventh-day Adventist and Yes, we should want to spread the 3 angel's messages.  We should be proud of the Message that we have to give. When the answer is given to  questions asked perhaps then we can be about our Father's Business.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 19, 2010, 09:43:22 PM
I actually contacted the Forest Lake church in the past when I first became aware that Spiritual Formation was being taught to Adventist pastors and that Derrick Morris was very involved in this.  I was able to reach a person who I believe was an associate pastor. As I recall, the answer she gave did not make it clear to me whether he was teaching it at Forest Lake or not.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 19, 2010, 11:53:57 PM
Some information about Spiritual Formation in the SDA & other churches

<http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god (http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god)>

In researching Spiritual Formation & Derek Morris this evening I came across this slide show put together by an SDA (I am not sure who). On the 1st page there is a transcript below in small print -- I believe it is the same wording as on the slides. I copied  & saved it to a document so that I can browse through it later. The slide show is quite long but very informative. You will need to view it in full screen mode.

A word of caution: It is very dangerous to let your guard down by chanting (even a Bible word) & relaxing & trying to enter an "Alpha" state so that you can experience an euphoric closeness to "God".  Please don't anybody try this because it is allowing a false spirit to control your mind. I am convinced that this is a form of spiritualism & one of the very deceptions that EG White warned against.

restoretruth
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 20, 2010, 07:34:16 AM
restoretruth,
I'm reading with great interest the slideshow and it's very refreshing to see the dear words of Sister White again as she points out specifically the dangers of spiritualism. It's so evident, how spiritualism has reached a high degree of sophistication today in our churches all the way to the top leaders.

Without the guidance of the Lord through Sister White, in watching for and refuting the very subtle infiltration of spiritualism, we would be hopelessly lost.

I believe that monster called political correctness is being used very effectively by the evil one. (it's very possible, he even devised it long ago in preparation for our day) One tentacle of political correctness says anyone who does not go along with what society deems right according to PC, becomes an outcast, unpopular, and deserving of punishment. (the mark of the beast and who will follow it for one) Hence the reluctance of our leaders to say no to questionable persons or ideas for instance.

It's a long presentation so I'm reading it in sections.

Thank you,
Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on October 20, 2010, 10:17:16 AM


A word of caution: It is very dangerous to let your guard down by chanting (even a Bible word) & relaxing & trying to enter an "Alpha" state so that you can experience an euphoric closeness to "God".  Please don't anybody try this because it is allowing a false spirit to control your mind. I am convinced that this is a form of spiritualism & one of the very deceptions that EG White warned against.

restoretruth


I agree with this... very dangerous...in the alpha state is when demons can enter
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 20, 2010, 10:18:58 AM
Carl,

Yes, it is very long! I haven't read it all yet either, but after midnight I thought it time to get some sleep. It appears the author has attempted to pull together as much info as he could, from many various sources, (including non-SDA sources), about Spiritual Formation in the Christian world, not just SDA. Spiritual Formation, Centering Prayer, etc -- seems to have taken root in Protestant & some SDA circles, as well as originating with the Jesuits. The counter-reformation is coming back in a very subtle way.

restoretruth
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 20, 2010, 10:59:16 AM
I agree with this... very dangerous...in the alpha state is when demons can enter
  Newbie, how close should we allow ourselves to be associated with God. Should we not feel His closeness when we pray?  Shoud we refuse to feel His presence--or should we let the angels who are always with us carry our pleas to Him--I believe that Sr. White even saw Jesus when He came to sit with her----Or am I wrong about that?  Of course, I also know that none of us can be equated with the experiences that EGW lived?  This scares me---when do we cross the line between our closeness to God and the alpha state?
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 20, 2010, 11:04:14 AM


For info about Derek Morris & Spiritual Formation see:
<www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-S/Spiritual-form.pdf >

restoretruth
[/quote]  How closely should we read sdadefend?  Is this from Pilgrims Rest?  Are they to be thought reliable?    EL
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 20, 2010, 11:06:43 AM
Carl,

Yes, it is very long! I haven't read it all yet either, but after midnight I thought it time to get some sleep. It appears the author has attempted to pull together as much info as he could, from many various sources, (including non-SDA sources), about Spiritual Formation in the Christian world, not just SDA. Spiritual Formation, Centering Prayer, etc -- seems to have taken root in Protestant & some SDA circles, as well as originating with the Jesuits. The counter-reformation is coming back in a very subtle way.

restoretruth

I have to re-read it again this time in very detail but I did quick read it and can say, I have seen some of the things mentioned, like the raising of hands, eyes closed (some wide open), face upward, and body swaying as though in a trance. I'm so sad to say one was at PMC and other SDA church services online. I remarked at that time, if it weren't for the hymnal words, it might as well be a scene out of the Grand Ole Opry.

Also, some of the SDA names associated with the emerging church theme are very surprising but nevertheless enlightening in the warfare against the powers of darkness. Thank you for adding to the database of tools to fight the overwhelming deceptions.

We are in a lot of trouble! it's like swimming against the tide but, we know the root truth will stand to the end.

Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 20, 2010, 12:53:46 PM
  Why does not someone in a responsible position on this forum write to Dr. Morris so that he will at least be asked to give a proper statement as to what he believes about Spiritual Formation. If that is what is troubling the moderator perhaps he will be glad to set the record straight. I would very much like to see what he has to say about the subject.   I have not had the feeling that I am uncomfortable to be a Seventh-day Adventist and Yes, we should want to spread the 3 angel's messages.  We should be proud of the Message that we have to give. When the answer is given to  questions asked perhaps then we can be about our Father's Business.

I would be very sad if you felt "uncomfortable to be a Seventh-day Adventist ". I think we are all very grateful for the Message God has given us to share with the world. It is a wonderful message of Salvation & Restoration! The message of the Gospel is to have faith in Christ's blood to not only forgive our sins, but the power to cleanse us from sin! I believe the Gospel message is our 1st message! We also have a message of warning, not just to the world outside of our church, but a warning against error or deception in our own church -- the SDA church which we love! Ellen White gave many warnings & reproofs to our church. She never said she felt uncomfortable with the church because she had to try to correct things in the church. Our mission includes that of being a watchman, but in such a way that we build up the church, & not tear it down. I don't believe anyone on this forum wants to tear down the church. However, many do feel we must heed the warnings that God gave us concerning deceptions, apostasy, & spiritualism that would come into the church.

restoretruth
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on October 20, 2010, 12:54:53 PM
  Newbie, how close should we allow ourselves to be associated with God. Should we not feel His closeness when we pray?  Shoud we refuse to feel His presence--or should we let the angels who are always with us carry our pleas to Him--I believe that Sr. White even saw Jesus when He came to sit with her----Or am I wrong about that?  Of course, I also know that none of us can be equated with the experiences that EGW lived?  This scares me---when do we cross the line between our closeness to God and the alpha state?

 'feelings' can be the work of Satan as well...   I have a dear woman that prays and continues to pray every morning until she gets this feeling of a blanket coming over her whole body and then she speaks to it....   I tried to warn her that this does not sound like the way God operates and to be very careful.  She got mad at me and said that she likes this feeling and it is special to her.  I did what I could.  
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 20, 2010, 12:58:59 PM

For info about Derek Morris & Spiritual Formation see:
<www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-S/Spiritual-form.pdf >

restoretruth
  How closely should we read sdadefend?  Is this from Pilgrims Rest?  Are they to be thought reliable?    EL

RE: Vance Farrell, sdadefend & Pilgrim's Rest,

I attended Vance Farrell's church when he was a ministerial intern & pastor of the Petaluma, CA church, just before he resigned & entered self-supporting work. He was an inspiring preacher, and I know him to be an honest person, very knowledgeable, & whose burden is to be a watchman to the church. I haven't always agreed with him on everything, but I have never doubted his integrity or his love for our church & it's message.

RE: Prayer

God wants us to be close to Him. That closeness cannot come from trying to experience it by chanting "sacred" words, & bringing our minds to a trance like state. We are to guard our minds by bringing our thoughts into captivity to Christ. It is by bible study, prayer, sharing Christ with others, total surrender, commitment, & obedience that we are able to draw close to God & He is able to come close to us. Contemplative Prayer or Centering Prayer invites another spirit into the mind & heart by letting go of our control over our will. Its advocates even say that it is an experience that bypasses the normal avenues of communication & directly infuses the soul. It is an experience of turning inward to self for an "experience", rather than outward in ministering Christ to others.

restoretruth
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 20, 2010, 01:54:06 PM
EL:

This culture of "political correctnesss" has permeated the church and people seem to feel that we should never say anything even if we disagree with waht is going on. We do not want to be labled as divisive, or  trouble makers. Sometimes we have to stand for truth. It will encourage others. i believe that we are even now being tested with smaller things, (allthough I do not concider this to be a small thing) in preparation to much bigger tests in the near future. If you haven't noticed, it seems as though it may start getting uncomfortable to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Especially if we want to spread the 3 angels' messages.

I think what Larry means is, the nature of political correctness where it makes those who oppose it  unpopular, so, SDA's who uphold truth are made to be looked upon as kooks and fanatics in a world where a love of the world is commonplace. Even among certain "SDA" groups classified as "progressive" or "emerging" the 3 Angels messages are frightening and those who preach it are called, well, to be polite "fundamentalists" as though it's a bad thing. (in their eyes)

So, in light of this, it would be "uncomfortable" to be one of the few truth speakers among a field of apostates. In the time of trouble, SDA's will be a much hated group when the world wrongly perceives them as causing all the world troubles by not worshiping on Sunday.

Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 20, 2010, 11:57:13 PM
HAS A FORM OF  SPIRITUALISM ENTERED THE CHURCH WE LOVE?
[/color]
See: <http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god-part-2 (http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god-part-2)>

This slide show linked above is a continuation of the one we linked to previously at:

<http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god (http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god)>

Some timely warnings out of our church's past from EG White:

"...False theories, clothed with garments of light, will be presented to God's people. Thus Satan will try to deceive, if possible, the very elect. Most seducing influences will be exerted; minds will be hypnotized. {CCh 323.6}

"... The exaltation of nature as God, the unrestrained license of the human will, the counsel of the ungodly
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 21, 2010, 06:38:48 AM
For thousands of years Satan has been experimenting upon the properties of the human mind, and he has learned to know it well. By his subtle workings in these last days, he is linking the human mind with his own, imbuing it with his thoughts; and he is doing this work in so deceptive a manner that those who accept his guidance know not that they are being led by him at his will. The great deceiver hopes so to confuse the minds of men and women, that none but his voice will be heard.  {2SM 352.3}  

"I say to all: Be on your guard; for as an angel of light Satan is walking in every assembly of Christian workers, and in every church, trying to win the members to his side ...." {CCh 324.3}

God, through Ellen White, gave us many words of warning to keep His people safe from Satan's deceptive power. The evidence that his deceptive power is in our own church is surely an indication of how close Christ's 2nd Coming must be. Let's get ready! Jesus is coming!

restoretruth

Of fairly recent, it's been very frustrating to me how a people (SDA's including the top leaders) that should know much better are being fooled hand over foot by the wiles of the devil like they are dumbfounded and blinded without a mind to think with. I think part of the problem is, they underestimate the power of the devil and they think when deceptions come, they'll be able to easily see it. But there they are, writing and speaking "smooth things" while the deception is already fooling them. What do they think when the Lord warned, "the very elect can be fooled"?

As written by Ellen White, Satan has been studying the nature of men for centuries and on top of that, he has a superior mind above men. Without God's help, men are like sitting ducks to him.

Your right restoretruth, the greatly increased activities of the devil today means only one thing,  He knows the Lord's return is very near but do the majority of SDA's? at such a crucial time as this when drawing ever closer to Jesus is vital, they are cavorting with the many enticements of the world.

We must not, cannot be fooled at this critical time in history. There is no second chance.

Thanks for the Part 2, after my workout, I'll be reading it the rest of the day.

Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Richard OFfill on October 21, 2010, 07:12:51 AM
Hello Friends,

Betty and I are still in England!

I do not believe in spiritual formation. The idea of asking Dr. Morris how he feels about this is a good one.

There is a trend here and there toward mystical worship. However we need to be careful not to go into a 'feeding frenzy'. The net result on our personal spiritual lives will be negative and even harmful. I hear people say sometimes that the church has apostitized. My usual answer is "I am part of the church and I haven't apostized, have you?"  :-)
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 21, 2010, 07:17:54 AM
Hello Friends,

Betty and I are still in England!

I do not believe in spiritual formation. The idea of asking Dr. Morris how he feels about this is a good one.

There is a trend here and there toward mystical worship. However we need to be careful not to go into a 'feeding frenzy'. The net result on our personal spiritual lives will be negative and even harmful. I hear people say sometimes that the church has apostitized. My usual answer is "I am part of the church and I haven't apostized, have you?"  :-)

Hello pastor,
Yes, as heated as things may get at times, we must remember to keep a balance to  it and look at the whole situation. Afterall, this is the church that will continue to the end even though many will fall away, the core will remain. We just have to be sure we are with the core.

Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 21, 2010, 10:13:37 AM
Hello Friends,

Betty and I are still in England!

I do not believe in spiritual formation. The idea of asking Dr. Morris how he feels about this is a good one.

There is a trend here and there toward mystical worship. However we need to be careful not to go into a 'feeding frenzy'. The net result on our personal spiritual lives will be negative and even harmful. I hear people say sometimes that the church has apostitized. My usual answer is "I am part of the church and I haven't apostized, have you?"  :-)
Pastor, I agree with your statement and your warning about a "feeding frenzy" is well taken. However, although the topic was about Derrick Morris and his relationship to Spiritual Formation, he was only referred to 6 or 7 times, in the 24 posts. Most of the material that was posted had to do with the nature, content and dangers of Spiritual Formation itself. It is true that one person was disturbed that the subject was brought up at all, but I don't think I would call it a "feeding frenzy."   :-)
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 21, 2010, 10:55:59 AM
Pastor, I agree with your statement and your warning about a "feeding frenzy" is well taken. However, although the topic was about Derrick Morris and his relationship to Spiritual Formation, he was only referred to 6 or 7 times, in the 24 posts. Most of the material that was posted had to do with the nature, content and dangers of Spiritual Formation itself. It is true that one person was disturbed that the subject was brought up at all, but I don't think I would call it a "feeding frenzy."   :-)

I have watched this thread and I am sure that all of you who have posted are very sincere Christians--much more learned than I am,---I have learned a lot from this thread alone. Even though I do not think that Dr. Morris has been attacked, since his name was so emphasized at the start of the thread it is only true that the whole talk of Spiritual Formation has centered on whether Dr. Morris is the right person to head'The Ministers Magazine".  Since I know little about  Dr. Morris, Spiritual Formation, or The Ministers publication I had best leave the whole conversation to the rest of you.  However, I do wonder what his answer would be if someone of importance on this forum would ask DR. Morris to answer the questions regarding his belief at this time regarding 'Spiritual Formation'.  If his time is limited to answer all the questions that are being asked I think that I  will just enjoy his ministry.  I think that I will just 'wait and see'.     
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 21, 2010, 11:57:38 AM
Hello Friends,

Betty and I are still in England!

I do not believe in spiritual formation. The idea of asking Dr. Morris how he feels about this is a good one.

There is a trend here and there toward mystical worship. However we need to be careful not to go into a 'feeding frenzy'. The net result on our personal spiritual lives will be negative and even harmful. I hear people say sometimes that the church has apostitized. My usual answer is "I am part of the church and I haven't apostized, have you?"  :-)

Pastor,

We love & support our church, as you do! We certainly don't think the Church has apostatized! We do think there are some in our church, people of influence, who have strayed from our foundational pillars. Some are teaching things that lead to spiritualism, like Spiritual Formation, Contemplative Prayer, Centering Prayer). Some are teaching justification without sanctification, (that because of our fallen nature we have no power to totally overcome habits of sin). Some are teaching a form of sanctification without justification. (God doesn't require Jesus' shed blood to forgive sin but He does require a change in character -- the Healing Salvation Model.) This group is also teaching a form of Pantheism that "God's law of love" is a "natural or physical law as well as spiritual", which God put in place to govern His creation naturally; that this natural law will naturally destroy the wicked. We are saddened by these teachings because they threaten our salvation & our church! Being aware of these things does not discourage us. It tells us Jesus is coming soon! And it drives us to the study of God's Word & to the special testimonies He has given us, to guide us through these end time events!

We think, as I am sure you do, that it is important to address these issues because they do directly affect our salvation. It is difficult to just talk about the issues without documenting the false teaching. When you document the false teaching, then personalities become involved. When we do discuss these things we should be careful not to be critical of the person or assign motives to any individual. But sometimes the personality is so closely involved with the issue that they become joined to the issue. The problem of Spiritual Formation in our church is larger than Derek Morris. Having said that, maybe we can continue to discuss the issues without involving personalities, if possible. Let us pray that God gives Elder Wilson the wisdom & the spiritual power to lead our church in the right way.

restoretruth
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 21, 2010, 12:03:22 PM
However, I do wonder what his answer would be if someone of importance on this forum would ask DR. Morris to answer the questions regarding his belief at this time regarding 'Spiritual Formation'.  If his time is limited to answer all the questions that are being asked I think that I  will just enjoy his ministry.  I think that I will just 'wait and see'.      

One problem I might have with asking Derick Morris is, how can you tell what is in his heart? of course he will give an answer to those asking what they would like to hear. Obviously he has studied in depth over a long time spiritual formation and I should tend to think it might be ingrained in him.

Once in office how can we be assured he won't in very subtle and cleaver ways, try to twist the truth just enough to rise a question about truth, something the devil is very good at?

I can't be sure but might not this be  similar to what occurred with La Sierra hiring professors that teach evolution? I'm sure they turned in a very nice sounding resume, those things that the people hiring wanted to hear, but look what happened once installed as teachers and how many are going to be lost because of it?

Just trying to thwart the devil's plans.

Carl

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 21, 2010, 12:46:54 PM
Yes, Elder Wilson has a very tough battle ahead of him. I'm sure the evil one is very upset with Wilson's appointment and has his cross hairs trained on him. Let us pray he receives the power, protection and wisdom to slow down this flood of evil permeating the church.

Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 21, 2010, 01:49:45 PM
One problem I might have with asking Derick Morris is, how can you tell what is in his heart? of course he will give an answer to those asking what they would like to hear. Obviously he has studied in depth over a long time spiritual formation and I should tend to think it might be ingrained in him.



Carl


Are you saying that you think that DR. Morris would purposefully deceive and lie about something as important as this in order to gain control of a Magazine?  Do you think that he would be purposefully answering your questions in a manner to deceive what is really in his heart? That he would say anything just to please the public, even to the point of lying?  Do you think that deceit has been ingrained in him?  Or am I misunderstanding you?  I hope that I am.This is very important to me.   EL
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 21, 2010, 03:21:17 PM
Are you saying that you think that DR. Morris would purposefully deceive and lie about something as important as this in order to gain control of a Magazine?  Do you think that he would be purposefully answering your questions in a manner to deceive what is really in his heart? That he would say anything just to please the public, even to the point of lying?  Do you think that deceit has been ingrained in him?  Or am I misunderstanding you?  I hope that I am.This is very important to me.   EL

Only the Lord knows his true motives El. As humans we can only work with what we have and are able to. The Lord wants us to use the material He has given us, to use our brains and reasonings to sort out evil from good in this case.

I'm just curious, how would you, handle his hiring or not? how much evidence would you require to say yes to his hiring?

You seem to have a somewhat naive view of the seriousness of the problem that the church is facing El. Do you not know we are under full assault of the evil one? have you not seen with your own eyes and ears the giant shift towards spiritualism and apathy the church has moved to? do you not see the lukewarmness of the churches?

One reason we have gotten into this Laodicean situation in the first place was there was not enough questioning with wisdom and much prayer in the first place, do you want this attitude to continue even further by just giving every person elected for positions an easy once over and give him the position despite his background? only to pay the consequences later?

This is exactly what the devil wants El. Please, please don't play into his hands by having a happy go lucky, anything goes, all will be fine attitude. Blind trusting is not being wise and will lead to trouble that in turn will lead to loss of souls.

My response to you is not of a harsh rebuttal but rather of hope, hope that we, you and me can stand in the troublous times ahead. I want us to be together on that sea of glass, don't you?

God Bless always!
Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 21, 2010, 04:42:58 PM
Only the Lord knows his true motives El. As humans we can only work with what we have and are able to. The Lord wants us to use the material He has given us, to use our brains and reasonings to sort out evil from good in this case.

I'm just curious, how would you, handle his hiring or not? how much evidence would you require to say yes to his hiring?

You seem to have a somewhat naive view of the seriousness of the problem that the church is facing El. Do you not know we are under full assault of the evil one? have you not seen with your own eyes and ears the giant shift towards spiritualism and apathy the church has moved to? do you not see the lukewarmness of the churches?

One reason we have gotten into this Laodicean situation in the first place was there was not enough questioning with wisdom and much prayer in the first place, do you want this attitude to continue even further by just giving every person elected for positions an easy once over and give him the position despite his background? only to pay the consequences later?

This is exactly what the devil wants El. Please, please don't play into his hands by having a happy go lucky, anything goes, all will be fine attitude. Blind trusting is not being wise and will lead to trouble that in turn will lead to loss of souls.

My response to you is not of a harsh rebuttal but rather of hope, hope that we, you and me can stand in the troublous times ahead. I want us to be together on that sea of glass, don't you?

God Bless always!
Carl
Yes, Carl, with all my heart I want all of us to be together on that sea of glass.  And I grant that you are much better qualified to write on this matter than I .  I am sorry if you think that I am playing into the devil's hands--I certainly am not in a happy go lucky attitude about this.   From my meager point of view, I was only suggesting that Dr. Morris have a chance to answer to you on this forum as to his plans and beliefs about the subject.  I know that this is your forum and I probably have no right to even speak up about this matter.  From what you have said I believe that you think that Dr. Morris is certainly working right into the devil's hands.  It is quite clear from the beginning of this thread that Dr. Morris was under unfair scrutiny.  I just suggested that someone allow him to speak for himself.  I guess I was wrong and if so, I am sorry. 

I was not questioning his hiring at all.  Probably he is not the right man from what I have read on this thread.  I have been active in the churches in the past and now I am retired and caring for my aged husband.  I just thought that fair is fair and that the fair thing would be to let Dr. Morris speak for himself.  Apparently you think that he would not be honest--you have that right.  I do not personally know Dr. Morris even though I believe in him and enjoy his ministry.  My mind is open and I could very well be wrong in my opinion.  I hope not but I do not think that the Lord would allow him to completely destroy the ministry of the church.  Unless you think that God is not in control.  Time will tell, won't it?   You are right--the Lord knows his true motives---I hope that you have good reason to post your opinion of him---I hope that the men who chose the new leader for the Ministry will be led by God. Please pray that this will happen.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on October 21, 2010, 05:43:05 PM
   From my meager point of view, I was only suggesting that Dr. Morris have a chance to answer to you on this forum as to his plans and beliefs about the subject.  I know that this is your forum and I probably have no right to even speak up about this matter.  From what you have said I believe that you think that Dr. Morris is certainly working right into the devil's hands.  It is quite clear from the beginning of this thread that Dr. Morris was under unfair scrutiny.  I just suggested that someone allow him to speak for himself.  I guess I was wrong and if so, I am sorry. 



No matter what any of us think about Derek Morris, the decision has been made to put him in this position.  If he is a danger to the church in that position, I believe the Lord is well able to deal with it.  I would hope that faithful pastors, all of whom (I assume) get Ministry magazine, would voice their concerns if Brother Morris promotes error in the publication.  If God can deal with a Saul, whom He had rejected as king, but who still remained in power for some time; He can certainly deal with an editor of Ministry magazine, if he has bought into error.  I think we need to trust that the God who put Ted Wilson at the head of the GC, can also engineer things to improve the situation elsewhere in the church.

Either Morris is still in favor of Spiritual Formation and its demonic errors, or he is not.  I'm not convinced that we can make that assessment here.  I only know what I have read about him and SF.  I've only heard him speak once, and that was at Andrews in 2009.  It was actually a good sermon, and had no elements of SF in it.  But given his past history, it would be good if he would publicly repudiate his former adherence to SF.  My cynical side says that it is not likely to happen, but I must remind myself that stranger things have happened, and that God is still in control of His work.

Let's not be too hard on El here.  She is trying to take the high road.  And, by the way, El, this isn't Carl's forum, it is Pastor O'Ffill's.  :-)  And you have every right to give your opinion--as long as it agrees with mine.  :-D
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 21, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Yes, Carl, with all my heart I want all of us to be together on that sea of glass.  And I grant that you are much better qualified to write on this matter than I .  I am sorry if you think that I am playing into the devil's hands--I certainly am not in a happy go lucky attitude about this.   From my meager point of view, I was only suggesting that Dr. Morris have a chance to answer to you on this forum as to his plans and beliefs about the subject.  I know that this is your forum and I probably have no right to even speak up about this matter.  From what you have said I believe that you think that Dr. Morris is certainly working right into the devil's hands.  It is quite clear from the beginning of this thread that Dr. Morris was under unfair scrutiny.  I just suggested that someone allow him to speak for himself.  I guess I was wrong and if so, I am sorry.  

Hi El,

Please El this is not my forum at all, I'm just a new comer to this forum and Christendom, frankly I am very appreciative of being able to talk about the dire times for all of us who love the Lord on this forum. (there aren't too many level headed forums on truth these days!)

No, I don't think specifically your playing into the devil's hands or happy go lucky, not at all, I say that in a general way to mean most of us including me because we all have been guilty. I believe the time has long since arrived where we must be extra strong in standing for the truth. When the Lord said "can fool the very elect" I take that as it is, that the deceptions will be so powerful, cunning, and subtle, we can be deceived and not even know it and only with the Lord's help can we see and overcome them.

On Mr. Morris, I only think because of his extensive training on spiritual formation, he must be proven a bit more than someone who doesn't have that spiritualistic background. We must remember, Satan's number one tool for deception is spiritualism, it's paving the way for him to impersonate Christ. Like I mentioned, I have no idea what's in Morris's heart but as humans we can all fall prey, even unknowingly into what we've been taught, in his case, spiritualism.

So, all I'm saying is we must exercise extraordinary care with much prayer in trying to prevent the lax hiring behavior that's done so much damage already. (like evolution in our universities for one). Let me say this on Morris, it could very well be he has recanted, and repented, I certainly hope so. But if he's not, I would not want to be responsible for the loss of souls attributed to his hiring as editor of a widely read magazine.

This by the way does not apply to Morris solely at all, it should apply to everyone who gets hired by SDA institutions and organizations. It's very evident Satan is using this to place his agents within our church to undermine and it's highly successful.

Please don't take what I say personally El, I mean in general terms, I will admit, I get fired up at the terrible deceptions and the damage it's doing to our church and I tend to talk  in a strong manner but in a general way, not meaning any brother or sister specifically. One day El, we'll look back at all this and sigh with relief that it's finally over, no more deceptions, sin, dying, sorrows and only eternity to look forward to.

Take care, God Bless!
Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on October 22, 2010, 12:27:10 AM
FYI -- AUDIO SERMONS RELEVANT TO OUR  DISCUSSION ON SPIRITUAL FORMATION

From Dr. Samuel Pipim's website  <http://hopevideo.com/media_with_samuel_koranteng-pipim-2.htm (http://hopevideo.com/media_with_samuel_koranteng-pipim-2.htm)>

Counterfeit Revivals, the Emergent Church and the New Spirituality Movements  -- MP3

1True Revival: What It Is and What It's Not <http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-1.mp3 (http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-1.mp3)>

2 True Spirituality: The Walk of Holiness <http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-2.mp3 (http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-2.mp3)>

3 Post Modernism & Emergent Church <http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-3.mp3 (http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-3.mp3)>

4 The New Revivals & the New Spiritualities <http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-4.mp3 (http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-4.mp3)>

5 New Spiritual Warfare: Prayer Warriors, Prayer Walks, & Prayer Offensives
<http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-5.mp3 (http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-5.mp3)>

6 Ancient Future: Which Way To Revival & Spirituality <http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-6.mp3 (http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/cm09/skp-6.mp3)>

Who is Dr. Pipim?

Samuel Koranteng-Pipim, Ph.D., a Director of Public Campus Ministries, was trained in engineering and systematic theology. Though born and reared in Ghana, West Africa, he is currently based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where he ministers to students, faculty, and staff at the University of Michigan. He also teaches courses in Christian ethics and theology at college and university campuses around the world. As an inspirational speaker, Dr. Pipim speaks extensively at events for youth, students, and young professionals. He is also the author of several insightful books, including the life-changing work Patience in the Midst of Trials and Afflictions. His newest book is titled This Is Love, a work that deals with closer relationships, deeper love, and higher spirituality.

Dr. Samuel Koranteng-Pipim is a Bible-believing scholar, well-known around the world for clarifying, articulating, and defending Christian beliefs and practices. He also speaks extensively in the various world Divisions, teaching or lecturing at several public universities and Christian/denominational institutions, conducting ministerial retreats, preaching at camp meetings, church revival and evangelistic meetings, and speaking extensively at events for youth, students, and young professionals. While greatly appreciated by many Bible-believing church members and leaders around the world, his apologetic writings, candid messages, and influence among young people have not always been appreciated by theologically-liberal thought leaders within the church.

Religious Background:  Born in a small village in Ghana, West Africa, he was introduced to the Seventh-day Adventist faith at a very early age. However, in his search for something "better," he gravitated towards the "gospel of power," becoming an active member and leader of a non-denominational, charismatic-renewal movement. Years afterwards, the diligent study of the Bible and the message of the book The Great Controversy led him to become a committed Seventh-day Adventist--a church he describes as "the most biblically-consistent, Evangelical Protestant denomination."

PS--  His website links to  http://www.revivalsermons.org  (sounds familiar)

restoretruth
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Carl on October 22, 2010, 06:08:29 AM
restoretruth,
Yes, I read Dr. Pipim regularly. I love the eloquent and concise way he puts things and especially how he clarifies difficult subjects so even I can understand! (and how he tackles subjects many speakers find taboo today)

Thank you.
Carl
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 22, 2010, 08:39:49 AM
No matter what any of us think about Derek Morris, the decision has been made to put him in this position.  If he is a danger to the church in that position, I believe the Lord is well able to deal with it.  I would hope that faithful pastors, all of whom (I assume) get Ministry magazine, would voice their concerns if Brother Morris promotes error in the publication.  If God can deal with a Saul, whom He had rejected as king, but who still remained in power for some time; He can certainly deal with an editor of Ministry magazine, if he has bought into error.  I think we need to trust that the God who put Ted Wilson at the head of the GC, can also engineer things to improve the situation elsewhere in the church.

Either Morris is still in favor of Spiritual Formation and its demonic errors, or he is not.  I'm not convinced that we can make that assessment here.  I only know what I have read about him and SF.  I've only heard him speak once, and that was at Andrews in 2009.  It was actually a good sermon, and had no elements of SF in it.  But given his past history, it would be good if he would publicly repudiate his former adherence to SF.  My cynical side says that it is not likely to happen, but I must remind myself that stranger things have happened, and that God is still in control of His work.

Let's not be too hard on El here.  She is trying to take the high road.  And, by the way, El, this isn't Carl's forum, it is Pastor O'Ffill's.  :-)  And you have every right to give your opinion--as long as it agrees with mine.  :-D

It might be well to actually go to the website of Dr Derek Morris and get first hand what he believes. The SDA Defend site is sometimes unfair and exaggerated. I am disturbed by what i have read about him, and he has no business editing Ministry if he believes anything close to what SDA defend claims

http://preachwithpower.com/

I haven't had time to peruse  his site, but some on here may have the time to see if they find elements of SF in his  printed material.

Stan
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 22, 2010, 10:42:22 AM
It might be well to actually go to the website of Dr Derek Morris and get first hand what he believes. The SDA Defend site is sometimes unfair and exaggerated. I am disturbed by what i have read about him, and he has no business editing Ministry if he believes anything close to what SDA defend claims

http://preachwithpower.com/

I haven't had time to peruse  his site, but some on here may have the time to see if they find elements of SF in his  printed material.

Stan


Thanks for posting that Stan. I skimmend through one of his sermons and looked at several titles of sermons and sermon notes and didn't see anything that appeared to be directly related to S F. On the positive side he mentioned Haddon Robinson as one of his mentors. I am an admirer of Robinson having read his book on preaching, heard him preach a devotional series on CD and by chance while surfing religious TV stations saw him speaking through a translater to a group of chinese men who I assumed were ministers. Robinson is at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in New England where Morris earned one of his graduate degrees. On the on the other hand, Morris mentioned Hyveth Williams as someone he admires.

There is a place on the website where he can be contacted. I sent him a message asking him what his current position is on Spiritual Formation.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on October 22, 2010, 01:01:40 PM
Good job, Larry
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on October 22, 2010, 01:53:10 PM
Good job, Larry
  :salute:
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 22, 2010, 03:00:40 PM
  :salute:
Thank you!
I was beginning to feel like Rodney Dangerfield.  :-D
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 22, 2010, 03:26:41 PM
Thanks for posting that Stan. I skimmend through one of his sermons and looked at several titles of sermons and sermon notes and didn't see anything that appeared to be directly related to S F. On the positive side he mentioned Haddon Robinson as one of his mentors. I am an admirer of Robinson having read his book on preaching, heard him preach a devotional series on CD and by chance while surfing religious TV stations saw him speaking through a translater to a group of chinese men who I assumed were ministers. Robinson is at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in New England where Morris earned one of his graduate degrees. On the on the other hand, Morris mentioned Hyveth Williams as someone he admires.

There is a place on the website where he can be contacted. I sent him a message asking him what his current position is on Spiritual Formation.
  Thank You,Larry---I think that you are being very honest, thoughtful and headed in the right direction to learn the truth and giving DR. Morris a chance to either redeem or explain himself. That is exactly the route that I think should have been, and apparently is being followed.  I am anxious to hear whatever you can tell us about this matter.  Thanks Again,  EL
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 22, 2010, 04:40:45 PM
  Thank You,Larry---I think that you are being very honest, thoughtful and headed in the right direction to learn the truth and giving DR. Morris a chance to either redeem or explain himself. That is exactly the route that I think should have been, and apparently is being followed.  I am anxious to hear whatever you can tell us about this matter.  Thanks Again,  EL
Actually you need to give the credit to Stan not me.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 22, 2010, 05:21:43 PM
Actually you need to give the credit to Stan not me.
Thank You, Stan-----
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 22, 2010, 05:44:54 PM
On the on the other hand, Morris mentioned Hyveth Williams as someone he admires.

There is a place on the website where he can be contacted. I sent him a message asking him what his current position is on Spiritual Formation.
Oh, My!!! After I read this statement I went directly to Google and simply googled the name Vyveth Williams---went to teachings of this lady. I read just a little---- That was about all that I could take.  If anyone admires her because of her beliefs he/she is DEAD WRONG.  If anyone admires her because of her boldness and lack of common sense I do not understand him/her at all when it comes to this lady.  Oh, My!!!!!  (Excuse my lack of sentiment)

I hope that he will answer your message about these things. 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 22, 2010, 07:49:14 PM
Oh, My!!! After I read this statement I went directly to Google and simply googled the name Vyveth Williams---went to teachings of this lady. I read just a little---- That was about all that I could take.  If anyone admires her because of her beliefs he/she is DEAD WRONG.  If anyone admires her because of her boldness and lack of common sense I do not understand him/her at all when it comes to this lady.  Oh, My!!!!!  (Excuse my lack of sentiment)

I hope that he will answer your message about these things. 
Dr. Morris has already responded to my email.  Here is what I sent him:

Dr. Morris, congratulations on being asked to edit Ministry Magazine. Since that announcement on ANN, questions have come up on certain Adventist discussion forums as to what your current position is concerning "spiritual formation." As you know Elder Wilson listed it in his sermon at the GC session as one of the trends and practices that do not belong in the Seventh-day Adventist church. One person said that she heard that you no longer "believe in it." I would greatly appreciate hearing your current position on this.

Sincerely,
Larry Lyons.

I did not get permission to post his reply, but he told me that his views on "spiritual formation" have drastically changed and that he has seen a dangerous mixture of truth and error and of Bible teaching and eastern mysticism as being presented as spirituality. 

He also told me that he would be happy to speak with me in person.

If you have questions for him, list them and I will phone him after the weekend.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 23, 2010, 01:30:54 AM
Dr. Morris has already responded to my email.  Here is what I sent him:

Dr. Morris, congratulations on being asked to edit Ministry Magazine. Since that announcement on ANN, questions have come up on certain Adventist discussion forums as to what your current position is concerning "spiritual formation." As you know Elder Wilson listed it in his sermon at the GC session as one of the trends and practices that do not belong in the Seventh-day Adventist church. One person said that she heard that you no longer "believe in it." I would greatly appreciate hearing your current position on this.

Sincerely,
Larry Lyons.

I did not get permission to post his reply, but he told me that his views on "spiritual formation" have drastically changed and that he has seen a dangerous mixture of truth and error and of Bible teaching and eastern mysticism as being presented as spirituality. 

He also told me that he would be happy to speak with me in person.

If you have questions for him, list them and I will phone him after the weekend.

Larry,
I have some real concerns about the response you got. Why would he not be willing for you to share his email? He needs to come clean and tell us what he believes.

You need to ask him specifically what he admires about Hyveth Williams? This woman is nothing but trouble. She is the poster lady
for the false winds of doctrine that are blowing out there. She clearly believes in various forms of mysticism.

He needs to be asked specifically about the quotations attributed to him by Vance Farrell, and needs to publicly renounce them in order for his reply to you to be credible.

Stan
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on October 23, 2010, 03:08:26 AM
Dr. Morris has already responded to my email.  Here is what I sent him:

Dr. Morris, congratulations on being asked to edit Ministry Magazine. Since that announcement on ANN, questions have come up on certain Adventist discussion forums as to what your current position is concerning "spiritual formation." As you know Elder Wilson listed it in his sermon at the GC session as one of the trends and practices that do not belong in the Seventh-day Adventist church. One person said that she heard that you no longer "believe in it." I would greatly appreciate hearing your current position on this.

Sincerely,
Larry Lyons.

I did not get permission to post his reply, but he told me that his views on "spiritual formation" have drastically changed and that he has seen a dangerous mixture of truth and error and of Bible teaching and eastern mysticism as being presented as spirituality. 

He also told me that he would be happy to speak with me in person.

If you have questions for him, list them and I will phone him after the weekend.

Although I have no specific questions I want to ask him, I, along with many others, eagerly await your report.  Since he has been so public in the past about his beliefs, it would be helpful if he publicly articulated the dangers in SF in an attempt to undo whatever damage he did.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ejclark on October 23, 2010, 07:42:46 AM
<http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god (http://www.slideshare.net/EmergingOmega/spiritually-experiencing-god)>
I spent some time going through this.  Most of the information I already knew.  I did appreciate the contexts used in this information showing the relationships that all the different practices share.  For instance, I have never been comfortable with prayer walks.  No reason, I just didn't feel comfortable with it.  Now I see the relationship between prayer walks and Labyrinth practices. 

I find interesting how the lack of Biblical knowledge feeds into the practices of spiritual formation.  For instance, people claim to have a relation with the Holy Spirit through these practices.  However, the experience they have are of a greater exaltation than did the prophets.  In other words, these people are supposedly having a more special relation and closer communication to God than did the prophets.  Except for Moses of course. 

In recent Adventist history, I find it interesting how a man named Froom and his book QOD damaged the teaching of the Gift of Prophecy.  Then comes Desmond Ford and expounds on the teachings from QOD and does more damage to the teaching of the Gift.  Then more modern men like Graeme Bradford and his book More than a Prophet and Biblical teachers like Bill Liversidge go even further to almost destroy the Gift of Prophecy.  Step by step, Satan has done a little here, a little there, and slowly set the stage for the mass acceptance of spiritual formation.

Because these people don't understand how God communicates through the Gift of Prophecy,and because they don't understand the roles played by God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, they are participating in an experience that goes against God's ways of communication.

It reminds me of when the serpent deceived Eve into eating the forbidden fruit.  Upon her first bite she felt a great feeling of exaltation.  I can imagine that is probably the same feeling felt by those experiencing spiritual formation.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 23, 2010, 08:16:40 AM
Stan, I didn't mean to imply that he refused to give me permission to post his reply. I just didn't think to ask him, and it is my understanding that proper internet etiquette requires permission to share private emails. Actually, he said little more than what I quoted.

As for the specific questions about his past statements, I do not plan to "interrogate" him. I accept at face value what he said unless he at some point proves otherwise.

In fact there is an invitation for anyone to contact him. His link is right on his website which stan posted.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on October 23, 2010, 10:22:44 AM
I spent some time going through this.  Most of the information I already knew.  I did appreciate the contexts used in this information showing the relationships that all the different practices share.  For instance, I have never been comfortable with prayer walks.  No reason, I just didn't feel comfortable with it.  Now I see the relationship between prayer walks and Labyrinth practices.  



I've never been comfortable with prayer walking, either, because it resembles too closely what Balaam did while trying to curse Israel.  God wouldn't hear him in one place, so they moved to another.  That's the pagan concept of prayer.  The implication with prayer walking is that it is more effective than praying in one's closet or at church.  I don't buy it.

By the way, can you point me to the exact place in the transcript where prayer walking is discussed?  It's a long transcript, and that this the thing I'd like to zero in on.  We have someone in our church who promotes prayer walking as part of "prayer ministries."  I don't want to be confrontational, but I do want to be informed.  Most people who are involved in prayer walking are doing it in all sincerity and don't have a clue about its origins or dangers.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: El on October 23, 2010, 12:11:52 PM

As for the specific questions about his past statements, I do not plan to "interrogate" him. I accept at face value what he said unless he at some point proves otherwise.

In fact there is an invitation for anyone to contact him. His link is right on his website which stan posted.
I am satisfied that Larry has done the right thing and I am satisfied to believe in Dr. Morris unless the future proves otherwise.  Raven, at one point you said that the decision has been made to put him in the position.  DOes that mean that Dr. Morris has accepted it? 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on October 23, 2010, 01:45:47 PM
I am satisfied that Larry has done the right thing and I am satisfied to believe in Dr. Morris unless the future proves otherwise.  Raven, at one point you said that the decision has been made to put him in the position.  DOes that mean that Dr. Morris has accepted it? 

I shouldn't have said it that way.  I meant no more than what was stated in the original post.  The decision was made to put him in that position in the sense that he was asked to do so by the Executive Committee, which means he has the blessing of the leadership.  That doesn't mean that the GC president is in favor of it, but he is only one man and I don't know if he can overrule the Executive Committee.  I don't think we know, yet, if he has accepted the position.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 23, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
I shouldn't have said it that way.  I meant no more than what was stated in the original post.  The decision was made to put him in that position in the sense that he was asked to do so by the Executive Committee, which means he has the blessing of the leadership.  That doesn't mean that the GC president is in favor of it, but he is only one man and I don't know if he can overrule the Executive Committee.  I don't think we know, yet, if he has accepted the position.
He has accepted the position.

BTW, I am fairly sure that  the by laws or protocal or whatever spells out those things would require that  Elder Wilson  be the chairman of the executive committee as part of his function as GC president. But that may not mean that he can veto a vote of the committee. 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ejclark on October 25, 2010, 04:36:49 PM
By the way, can you point me to the exact place in the transcript where prayer walking is discussed?  It's a long transcript, and that this the thing I'd like to zero in on.  We have someone in our church who promotes prayer walking as part of "prayer ministries."  I don't want to be confrontational, but I do want to be informed.  Most people who are involved in prayer walking are doing it in all sincerity and don't have a clue about its origins or dangers.
I don't recall seeing anything about prayer walking in the presentation.  But when I read the description about prayer labyrinth(slide 100&101) my first thought was "that sounds a lot like prayer walking".  I don't think that prayer walking would be as dangerous as the labyrinth, but for those who practice prayer walking, if they were introduced to prayer labyrinth they would probably think that would be the next logical transition to make.  I believe there are a number of prayer practices that seem harmless enough, but are not recognized as an introductory into something much more dangerous down the road.  What you might do is explain to those you are concerned for how the Bible teaches how the Holy Spirit works and how through prayer walking they are trying to obtain a relation that isn't Biblically supported.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on October 25, 2010, 04:58:43 PM
Thanks, ej.  I noticed the same thing about the prayer labyrinth.  The devil is quite clever, and since prayer is our only means of communicating with God, it only makes sense that he would create confusion in that area.  No Christian is against prayer, so whatever comes down the pike in the name of "prayer ministries" gets accepted by most people.  Many of these things are gimmicks at best, and border on pagan concepts at worst.  The whole premise that prayer walking is more effective than going to my closet is what set off the warning bells for me when I first learned about it.  God is not restricted to time or place when it comes to answering "the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man."
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 25, 2010, 11:35:47 PM
I received another email from Derek Morris. He said that he would be happy to speak with anyone who has questions about Spiritual Formation.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on November 20, 2010, 04:41:59 PM
I received another email from Derek Morris. He said that he would be happy to speak with anyone who has questions about Spiritual Formation.
A person I know who is very reliable and is knowledgable about Spiritual Formation and its dangers spent an hour or so on the phone last week with Derek Morris. He siad that Pastor Morris no longer promotes SF and has disconnected himself from all involvement with it. He has declined to teach a class in it at Andrews. He told my friend that he does not wish to make a big public statement about his change of mind because that would do more harm than good. I can see his point. I believe that he is sincere and truthful and he should be taken at his word.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on November 20, 2010, 05:29:35 PM
A person I know who is very reliable and is knowledgable about Spiritual Formation and its dangers spent an hour or so on the phone last week with Derek Morris. He siad that Pastor Morris no longer promotes SF and has disconnected himself from all involvement with it. He has declined to teach a class in it at Andrews. He told my friend that he does not wish to make a big public statement about his change of mind because that would do more harm than good. I can see his point. I believe that he is sincere and truthful and he should be taken at his word.

this is good news indeed... 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on November 20, 2010, 05:49:41 PM
A person I know who is very reliable and is knowledgable about Spiritual Formation and its dangers spent an hour or so on the phone last week with Derek Morris. He siad that Pastor Morris no longer promotes SF and has disconnected himself from all involvement with it. He has declined to teach a class in it at Andrews. He told my friend that he does not wish to make a big public statement about his change of mind because that would do more harm than good. I can see his point. I believe that he is sincere and truthful and he should be taken at his word.

It is not our purpose to cause trouble or be judgmental, but if a person has been publicly for something, wouldn't it be better if they were to stand publicly against it?  Especially something as serious this?  If it is true that he no longer believes in contemplative prayer & spiritual formation, it would seem to us that he has a unique opportunity, as well as a responsibility to expose the dangers in it.

Also, there is a question we have been wondering about:

Does he happen to be the same Derek Morris that is listed as an "Endowment Contributor" to the March 19-21, 2010 "Los Angeles Religious Education Congress sponsored by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles".  Does he financially support Spiritual Formation Seminars? <www.recongress.org/2010/pdf/Program2010.pdf > (search document for Derek Morris)
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on November 20, 2010, 11:51:50 PM
Thanks, restoretruth.  How on earth did you find that. It is a bit of a needle in a haystack. It appears that this Derek Morris was among those who gave the smallest amount, if I read it correctly. 10 or 15 dollars I think.  The name is spelled the same, and it would be quite a coincidence if it is not the same person. I will forward this to the person who talked to him.

This appears to be a very big deal in the Catholic church and they seem to have something for everybody.  

As far as him making a big public announcement, that may not be the best way to handle something like this. There are apparantly quite a few people involved in it, many of whom are no doubt sincere and well intentioned people. A big frontal assualt may not be the best way to turn it around. A big public fight in the church can lead to wounding and even driving out innocent people. I am just thinking out loud, but he may be able to deal with it in a more effective way in his new position. As editor of Ministry Magazine will have a direct influence on all Seventh-day Adventist ministers. He needs to use his influence wisely. I presume he will have others to consult with as to the best approach if he is of a mind to do something about SF.

At any rate, I hope to get a response about the endowment contribution.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on November 21, 2010, 04:17:56 PM
Restoretruth, I forwarded the link to the event to my friend who had talked to Derek Morris. He looked and found his name on the list. My friend's response was that it was a five dollar donation and it was not to support this specific event, but to support Christian education. It is not clear where the money goes. A 5 dollar donation is like giving to a homeless person. We don't know or ask exactly where the money is going. My friend said that if it were a large amount it would be worth following up, but he is not going to ask about a 5 dollar donation. He said that he was encouraged by his conversation with Morris who seemed to have some of the same concerns tht Elder Wilson expressed in his GC sermon.

My friend said that he would not discourage anyone from digging for information, but we need to give him the benefit of a doubt unless we have something more to go on. I agree with that .

He will certainly be held accountable for the direction of Ministry Magazine. We will find out soon enough what his direction will be.

Pastor O'Ffill once suggested to me in a different situation to "watch and wait. And keep your powder dry" Good advice, I think.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on November 21, 2010, 06:55:43 PM

My friend said that he would not discourage anyone from digging for information, but we need to give him the benefit of a doubt unless we have something more to go on. I agree with that .

He will certainly be held accountable for the direction of Ministry Magazine. We will find out soon enough what his direction will be.

Pastor O'Ffill once suggested to me in a different situation to "watch and wait. And keep your powder dry" Good advice, I think.
[/quote
We agree. We found that link in our previous search. We only mentioned it now because we were curious as to why if he doesn't believe it anymore would he be still involved in it in any way. That link is quite recent. We are not against him, we are against "spiritual formation" & using Jesuits for mentors!  We do need to speak out against it, when we see it.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 07, 2010, 02:45:55 PM
The Voice of Prophecy has announced tht Elizabeth Talbot, the senior pastoir at Grace Place, a Seventh-day Adventist church in Alhambra CA, (Near Los Angeles), will be teaching Spiritual Formation for the Vioce of Prophecy on Hope Channel soon. They are apparently calling it "Jesus 101". Mike Tucker and Elizabeth Talbot have described the program in a VOP newsletter.

http://www.vop.com/article.php?id=871

For those who are not familiar with the history of Spiritual Formation, it is a program to develop "spirituality."  Spiritual Formation is considered by many Bible believing Christians both iAdventists and those in other denominations to include techniques such as meditation, contemplative prayer, and other methods that are found in new age and eastern mysticism that are a subtle form of spiritualism. Spiritual Formation was originated by Ignatious Loyola the founder of the Jesuits as a method of preparing Jesuit novices for their mission and work.

The modern versions of it apparentlty came directly from the RC church in training centers, one popular one in NYC run by RC nuns, where pastors from many denominations (including ours) have gone to be trained in teaching it. It is couched in Christian terminology and claims as its goal to bring people closer to Christ. There are apparently a number of books including books by ministers of various denominations as well as those by eastern mystics that are used.

Pastor Derek Morris, newly appointed editor of Ministry Magazine, that is sent out to all Adventist pastors world wide, was at one time a strong promoter and teacher of Spiritual Formation. I contacted him recently about this. He told me that his attitude has drastically changed, and that he sees in it a dangerous mixture of truth and error. A friend of mine spent an hour on the phone with pastor Morris and is convinced that he has truly rejected Spiritual Formation, and repents of having been involved in it.  

My question is, are we prepared to counter this when attempts are made to bring this into our churches? Do we have the knowlege and courage to be able to speak against it if our pastor or the conference wants to bring it in as is happening in some places?
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on December 07, 2010, 06:14:53 PM
These are all familiar names in the circle of adventism.   We must all be careful and so careful to run from anything that even sounds like spiritualism. 

Are we willing to speak up against this?  No.  Can we walk away?  Yes.  To be vocal about this kind of thing requires more than just what we ourselves might thing.  We must ask God when the time is right and not rely on our own thoughts.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on December 07, 2010, 06:18:51 PM
I hate to say it, but having listened to the Voice of Prophecy off and on for most of my life (until most recently), it seems that things have slowly deteriorated since HMS Senior died 25 years ago.  What little I've heard seems to indicate a watering down of the message.  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten.

The fact that they've picked a woman who is fulfilling a role for which she is unqualified, and that she is involved with something that is clearly dangerous; is a clear indicator of how far they've strayed.  Something tells me that HMS would be squirming in his grave if he knew about this.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Pamela Adams on December 07, 2010, 06:30:55 PM
Thank you for posting the information and your comments all....evidently they are boldly going against what Ted Wilson has requested at the GC..
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 07, 2010, 08:25:49 PM
Thank you for posting the information and your comments all....evidently they are boldly going against what Ted Wilson has requested at the GC..
I agree Pamela. Boldness is what I see also. It seems as though Ted Wilson made  bold statements in his sermons at the General Conference and at the Autumn Council. There are other Adventist  leaders and evangelists who have been speaking the "straight testimony" for a long time, who have been greatly encouraged. Others who have had more of a "don't rock the boat" position have been joining with them in the call for genuine revival and reformation. Sad to say, but not unexpectedly, in some quarters there is bold opposition to this movement. Ellen White's counsel and warnings concerning the condition of the church just before the end, and the events that take place within the chuirch should be carefully studied.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 07, 2010, 10:06:40 PM
These are all familiar names in the circle of adventism.   We must all be careful and so careful to run from anything that even sounds like spiritualism.  

Are we willing to speak up against this?  No.  Can we walk away?  Yes.  To be vocal about this kind of thing requires more than just what we ourselves might thing.  We must ask God when the time is right and not rely on our own thoughts.
There is an SOP statement to the effect that to do nothing in an emergency or a crisis is treason. We never can tell when we might be the very person whose words might turn the tide for truth but we need preparation. To recognize error is one thing, but to be able to articulate it clearly if the need arises requires more than just our subjective impressions. People must hear and understand for themselves the evidence for our position against it.  
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 07, 2010, 11:19:48 PM
Elizabeth Talbot was born in Argentina to Seventh-day Adventist parents. I could find nothing about her early education except that she has degrees in music and organizational behavior. Similar to Hyveth Williams she worked in the business world for several years before going to graduate school at Azusa Pacific University to prepare herself for the ministry. Nothing is mentioned in google articles about her of ever having attended a Seventh-day Adventist school which adds to my concern.

She holds a Master of Arts degree in Biblical Studies from the Haggard School of Graduate Studies at Azusa Pacific University, and a Master of Arts in Organizational Behavior. She is currently studying under the mentorship of "renowned"  New Testament scholar Andrew Lincoln as a PhD candidate for Biblical Studies at the University of Gloucestershire, UK.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on December 08, 2010, 01:01:45 PM
It is good to be cautious and check everything out...

but to rebuke and reprove, I believe we must have the strength of God's power in order to have this message given. 

Otherwise, it will just look like some fanatic trying to take something away from those that are interested.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 08, 2010, 05:42:37 PM
It is good to be cautious and check everything out...

but to rebuke and reprove, I believe we must have the strength of God's power in order to have this message given.  

Otherwise, it will just look like some fanatic trying to take something away from those that are interested.
Yes, it very much depends on one's attitude. People who know you will know if you are fanatic or not. It also depends on the circumstances. One should never be rude and contentious. But any time error is met with truth, words such as "fanatic, and "troublemaker" may be used. Just know that it is not about us. The real battle is going on behind the scenes in invisable realms, and the power of God is on the side of truth.

"In order to reach those who are in the darkness of error and false theories, we must approach them with utmost caution and with the greatest wisdom, agreeing with them on every point that we can concientiously." (EGW, 3T p 462)

"Those who are uneducated, unprepared and unrefined are not prepared to enter a field in which the powerful influences of talent and education combat the truths of God's word. Neither can they successfully meet the strange forms of error , religious and philosophical combined, to expose that which requires a knowledge of scientific as well as scriptural truth." (5T p. 390)

"Believers must now be firmly be rooted in Christ, or else they will be led astray by some phase of error. Let your faith be substantiated by the word of God. Grasp firmly the living testimony of truth. Have faith in Christ as a personal savior...." (Evangelism p. 362)

"The church needs to awake to an understanding of the subtle powers of satanic agencies that must be met. If they keep on the whole armor, they will be able to conquer all the foes they meet, some of which are not yet developed. " (Ev. p. 362, 363)
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on December 09, 2010, 07:40:34 PM
I know of quite a few that have felt it their duty to reprove and rebuke....  all of them have been forced out of the church. 

We must not think of ourselves as prophets but wait on God and let Him direct the paths of reprove and rebuke.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 10, 2010, 01:42:00 AM
I know of quite a few that have felt it their duty to reprove and rebuke....  all of them have been forced out of the church.  

We must not think of ourselves as prophets but wait on God and let Him direct the paths of reprove and rebuke.
Who thinks of themsellf as a prophet? Where are you seeing that?

The important thing is that members need to be informed and educated about spiritual formation. Right now, I don't think most of our members have any idea what it is and where it comes from.  Jesus warned against deceptions, false prophets and false teachers that would be prevelant near the end. Ellen White warned against deceptions that will be almost overwhelming. Those warnings should not be taken lightly.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on December 10, 2010, 01:22:45 PM
Who thinks of themselves as a prophet? Where are you seeing that?

The important thing is that members need to be informed and educated about spiritual formation. Right now, I don't think most of our members have any idea what it is and where it comes from.  Jesus warned against deceptions, false prophets and false teachers that would be prevalent near the end. Ellen White warned against deceptions that will be almost overwhelming. Those warnings should not be taken lightly.
Wasn't it the prophets that God sent to give the messages of warning and reprove and rebuke?

I'm talking about the big picture.. not just spiritual formation but the whole ball of wax of all things that are coming into the church..   Those that have spoken up against it when there are those in the church that have accepted the false teachings, the reprovers and rebukers are looked at as fanatics and extremists and are forced out of the church.

Yes, no problems with education and being informed but to stand up and speak out is not received well by the church.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on December 10, 2010, 01:56:34 PM
Wasn't it the prophets that God sent to give the messages of warning and reprove and rebuke?

I'm talking about the big picture.. not just spiritual formation but the whole ball of wax of all things that are coming into the church..   Those that have spoken up against it when there are those in the church that have accepted the false teachings, the reprovers and rebukers are looked at as fanatics and extremists and are forced out of the church.

Yes, no problems with education and being informed but to stand up and speak out is not received well by the church.

Newbie, when I hear stories of people being "forced out of the church," I wonder what I would hear if I heard the other side of the story.  Some people don't pick their battles very well...everything becomes a major battle if it doesn't conform with their ideas or what they think is right.  Some people aren't kind and Christlike when they confront error.  I think it's a good idea, if possible, to hear the other side of the story.  

But this is off topic.  What Larry is saying is very important.  Spiritual formation is a very dangerous thing and it is something we cannot take lightly.  And, yes, we should ask for God's direction every time we battle error.  

What are some things we can do?  Write letters? Call VOP?

Vicki
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on December 10, 2010, 04:12:48 PM
Hi Vicki,
I know the people whom I speak of and know their positions and what they have done to try and rebuke and reprove error in the church.  They meant well but their message was not taken to kindly and they have been continually ousted.  Some keep trying  and others have become bitter...

Forums are the perfect place for such information and discussions on these kinds of things happening all around us.  To inform and educate is good but that information that might offend others and is best left out of the church until God's timing, power, and agenda present themselves.

God Bless
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on December 10, 2010, 04:50:25 PM
Hi Vicki,
I know the people whom I speak of and know their positions and what they have done to try and rebuke and reprove error in the church.  They meant well but their message was not taken to kindly and they have been continually ousted.  Some keep trying  and others have become bitter...

Forums are the perfect place for such information and discussions on these kinds of things happening all around us.  To inform and educate is good but that information that might offend others and is best left out of the church until God's timing, power, and agenda present themselves.

Newbie, I'm puzzled about your last sentence.  What information are you talking about that might offend others?  How do we know when God's timing, power and agenda are presented?  What if Larry feels that now is in God's timing to confront this problem?  How do you know it's not?
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on December 10, 2010, 05:16:47 PM
  To inform and educate is good but that information that might offend others and is best left out of the church until God's timing, power, and agenda present themselves.

God Bless

The gospel itself is offensive to many, but we are commanded to preach it.  The shaking in the church will be caused by a message that is offensive to many.  While we need to be tactful in our presentations of truth, we can't sit by and allow error to be promulgated without speaking out against it.  When error rears its ugly head, I don't think God would have us delay our response until it seems like the right time.  That time may never come, and we may miss the opportunity to warn those who are in danger of going down the wrong road.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on December 10, 2010, 05:24:44 PM
The following is copied from the Voice of Prophecy's website:  http://www.vop.com/article.php?id=871   

Much of it sounds nice, but if you have studied even a little bit about Spiritual Formation, phrases and words will pop out at you.  Very New Age.

I can just imagine what HMS Richards Sr. would think of this...

Quote
Spiritual Formation

(Objectives provided by Mike Tucker)

Assumptions:

The Spiritual Disciplines curriculum of the Biblical Institute for the Voice of Prophecy and Faith for Today is developed around the following basic assumptions (Adapted from Forster Freeman, Readiness for Ministry through Spiritual Direction.  The Alban institute, 1986.):

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on December 10, 2010, 05:48:20 PM
This is part of an interview with Elizabeth Talbot found here:  http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/search/label/E.%20Talbot
Quote
Marcel: You've been very critical of the controversial book written by your Union president, entitled Hidden Heresy?: Is Spiritualism Invading the Adventist Church? He suggests that the methodologies practiced by Adventist churches that model those of seeker-sensitive mega-churches like Saddleback and Willowcreek are "heresy" and not in harmony with the Adventist mission. Your reaction?

[Talbot:]  I have personally discussed with Elder (Tom) Mostert my concern about this book. We talked for about 4 hours. I even asked him to remove it from print. He explained to me what he was trying to say in the book... I continue to be whole heartedly opposed to a book that labels Spirit-filled methodologies for preaching the gospel and seeking non-Christians as "Hidden Heresy", especially as the General Conference Working Policy manual , policy No. O 110 so openly states:

"1. We recognize those agencies that lift up Christ before men as a part of the divine plan for evangelization of the world, and we hold in high esteem Christian men and women in other communions who are engaged in winning souls to Christ"

I think Hidden Heresy stands in open violation of the above mention policy.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 10, 2010, 08:55:44 PM
Thanks for posting that Vickie. Talbots statements about Tom Mostert's book actually in a way proves the point he was making in his book, "Hidden Heresies," that the Willow Creek and the Purpose Driven fads that were being pushed and promoted in our church contain subtle spiritualsim. 2 or 3 years after Tom Mostert published his warning and Herbert Douglass published his book "Truth Matters" also pointing out the subtle errors and dangers in those movements, Willow Creek announced that they had made a survey of members in the churches of their organization. They said they had discovered that the members were not being spiritually nourished and were not growing. It was hoped by many that this announcement meant that they would start preaching Jesus Christ. It was not to be. Instead they announced that they would address the problem by initiating a program which is apparently about the same as spiritual formation.

Her statement seemed to say that she supports those programs because they are preaching Jesus Christ. She evidently has not investigated what they teach. They have nothing to say about sin or repentance or living a holy life. Both Rick Warren and Willow Creek founder  Bill Hybels were trained and mentored by Robert Schuller who has stated that Hybels and Warren were his best students. Schuler is close to being openly Luciferian. He urges preachers to never insult their people by telling them they are sinners. It would damage their self esteem.

I believe that our church is in danger from SF, and I am wondering if it is not the final development of what Ellen White warned would be the "omega of apostasy" that would come into the church just before the end, and of which she said that she "fears" for our people. We should make it part of our regular prayers that God will turn this around. I dread the fact that this will be broadcast to the world over the church's "official TV sattelite station."
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 11, 2010, 01:05:36 AM
Thanks for posting that Vickie. Talbots statements about Tom Mostert's book actually in a way proves the point he was making in his book, "Hidden Heresies," that the Willow Creek and the Purpose Driven fads that were being pushed and promoted in our church contain subtle spiritualsim. 2 or 3 years after Tom Mostert published his warning and Herbert Douglass published his book "Truth Matters" also pointing out the subtle errors and dangers in those movements, Willow Creek announced that they had made a survey of members in the churches of their organization. They said they had discovered that the members were not being spiritually nourished and were not growing. It was hoped by many that this announcement meant that they would start preaching Jesus Christ. It was not to be. Instead they announced that they would address the problem by initiating a program which is apparently about the same as spiritual formation.

Her statement seemed to say that she supports those programs because they are preaching Jesus Christ. She evidently has not investigated what they teach. They have nothing to say about sin or repentance or living a holy life. Both Rick Warren and Willow Creek founder  Bill Hybels were trained and mentored by Robert Schuller who has stated that Hybels and Warren were his best students. Schuler is close to being openly Luciferian. He urges preachers to never insult their people by telling them they are sinners. It would damage their self esteem.

I believe that our church is in danger from SF, and I am wondering if it is not the final development of what Ellen White warned would be the "omega of apostasy" that would come into the church just before the end, and of which she said that she "fears" for our people. We should make it part of our regular prayers that God will turn this around. I dread the fact that this will be broadcast to the world over the church's "official TV sattelite station."

Good post Larry.

I read Mostert's book and I agreed with most of what he said. Mostert used one whole chapter from John MacArthur's book "Ashamed of the gospel" which is another excellent resource on this topic.

The popular churches want to sugar coat the gospel. HMS Richards would be rolling in his grave if he knew what was going on at VOP. A woman pastor should not be leading the VOP into this kind of error.

Stan
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ejclark on December 11, 2010, 03:10:54 PM
Here's what's going on in our neck of the woods.

It's being promoted that if you have the right relation with God, you too will hear the voice of God and you too can have an open conversation with the Holy Spirit.

Example: 
Holy Spirit "Go talk to that person"
Me "But I'm too shy, what should I say?"
Holy Spirit "Don't worry, I will give you the words to speak"
Me "But look at them, they are angry and hostile.  If I approach them, they will want to hurt me or something"
Holy Spirit "Don't worry, that is what your guardian angels are for.  They will protect you."

I think you can see the idea here.  It's being promoted you and the Holy Spirit can have a one on one conversation with each other.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 11, 2010, 10:01:06 PM
Here's what's going on in our neck of the woods.

It's being promoted that if you have the right relation with God, you too will hear the voice of God and you too can have an open conversation with the Holy Spirit.

Example: 
Holy Spirit "Go talk to that person"
Me "But I'm too shy, what should I say?"
Holy Spirit "Don't worry, I will give you the words to speak"
Me "But look at them, they are angry and hostile.  If I approach them, they will want to hurt me or something"
Holy Spirit "Don't worry, that is what your guardian angels are for.  They will protect you."

I think you can see the idea here.  It's being promoted you and the Holy Spirit can have a one on one conversation with each other.
It is ominous that these things are coming in to our church. We hear a lot of people on TV saying things like "God told me to do such and such" as if they are having a commonplace two way audible conversation with God. I wonder if there is a danger that people will buy into Spiritual Formation as a way to have this kind of direct experience. You don't need much faith if you actually experience a voice or a feeling. The whole charismatic movement is based on "experience" rather than faith.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ejclark on December 12, 2010, 06:28:07 AM
It is ominous that these things are coming in to our church. We hear a lot of people on TV saying things like "God told me to do such and such" as if they are having a commonplace two way audible conversation with God. I wonder if there is a danger that people will buy into Spiritual Formation as a way to have this kind of direct experience. You don't need much faith if you actually experience a voice or a feeling. The whole charismatic movement is based on "experience" rather than faith.
I know that what is being presented isn't unique to Bill Liversidge, but our pastor promotes him very heavily.  And what makes it all the more difficult to approach the problem he presents, is that so much of what he says is truth and is presented in a very powerful way.  So it makes it difficult to show others the errors of his ways.

I also believe he understands what makes his messages controversial, and he is very careful not to say certain things he believes in that would immediately expose his error.

If people had a better understanding of the physics and mechanics of the gift of prophecy, it would be easier to explain where he is in error.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on December 12, 2010, 08:49:37 AM
I know that what is being presented isn't unique to Bill Liversidge, but our pastor promotes him very heavily.  And what makes it all the more difficult to approach the problem he presents, is that so much of what he says is truth and is presented in a very powerful way.  So it makes it difficult to show others the errors of his ways.



It is a source of great frustration, but that's the way that so much of this stuff is:  plenty of truth, but many subtle errors.  This is how the devil will deceive so many before it all ends.  I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but this is why it is so important for us to fortify our minds with the truths of the Bible.  That, coupled with a sincere love of the the truth, is the only thing that will prevent deception.  But how may of our members really know what they believe and why?  The attacks on our doctrines have become more and more sophisticated.  We're way past just showing from the Bible that the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week and was never changed.  By the time the Sunday laws come, those who are lacking in those 2 elements (knowing and loving the truth) will have already been deceived and it will be a simple matter for them to go along with it.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ejclark on December 12, 2010, 09:30:12 AM
It is a source of great frustration, but that's the way that so much of this stuff is:  plenty of truth, but many subtle errors.  This is how the devil will deceive so many before it all ends.  I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but this is why it is so important for us to fortify our minds with the truths of the Bible.  That, coupled with a sincere love of the the truth, is the only thing that will prevent deception.  But how may of our members really know what they believe and why?  The attacks on our doctrines have become more and more sophisticated.  We're way past just showing from the Bible that the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week and was never changed.  By the time the Sunday laws come, those who are lacking in those 2 elements (knowing and loving the truth) will have already been deceived and it will be a simple matter for them to go along with it.
So very true.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on December 12, 2010, 11:22:56 AM
please evalutate....   here is a site....  tell me if it has any spiritual formation

http://www.ifollowdiscipleship.org/index.php?id=64
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Tammy on December 12, 2010, 12:13:26 PM
I know that what is being presented isn't unique to Bill Liversidge, but our pastor promotes him very heavily. 

So Bill Liversidge is off track?  Would you explain a little more about that.  I've heard him quite a bit at our campmeetings and am interested to know what I missed.  I am not doubting you, but I'm bothered that I haven't pick up on anything myself.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ejclark on December 12, 2010, 12:44:56 PM
So Bill Liversidge is off track?  Would you explain a little more about that.  I've heard him quite a bit at our campmeetings and am interested to know what I missed.  I am not doubting you, but I'm bothered that I haven't pick up on anything myself.
Our pastor showed us the Victory in Jesus series.  During the series, Mr. Liversidge tells two stories, one about when he was waiting for his car to be washed and a conversation he had with the Holy Spirit, and another story when he was waiting for a parking spot at a breakfast deli.  In both stories, his relation with the Holy Spirit is not supported by the Bible in a positive way.  For me, those two were the most glaring.  I would have to watch the series again to remember the more subtle errors.

What he does with the double application of time prophecies is nauseating.  Goes totally against what Spirit of Prophecy says.  But yet he says he believes in the Gift of Prophecy as it was manifested in Mrs. White.  So it would appear (I have not heard him say this) that to believe in the Spirit of Prophecy on one hand and disagree with it on the other hand, he would believe that the Gift of Prophecy in this day and age is different than what it was in times past with the authors of the Bible.  Same as what Graeme Bradford believes in the Gift of Prophecy, we all have the gift in one degree or another.  It gives us the ability to believe in, yet also disagree with Spirit of Prophecy.  This non-Biblical view of the Gift of Prophecy is based on spiritualism and spiritual formation.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Tammy on December 12, 2010, 01:18:32 PM
Mr. Liversidge tells two stories, one about .....
I remember the two stories you referred to.  I've always believed that the closer a relationship we have with Jesus, the more we will recognize His "voice" speaking to our conscience.  We will actually know that it is Him that is impressing us to do something and not just our own thought or Satan's.  I guess I just thought Bill was referring to that kind of thing.  I've heard a lot of people say, "I felt impressed to do such and such."  Is Bill describing something different than that?  If we feel impressed, aren't we thinking that it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the impressing?

And since I've never felt that I have that kind of relationship, I'm impressed when I hear stories like his, kind of envy a bit.  I remember an earlier post that mentioned something about people who are not satisfied with the spiritual state of the church or something, as being ones that would be deceived when they hear stuff that is being presented as things that will help us in that regard.  Am wondering (and concerned) as to whether this is where I fit in. 

And then I don't know what you are referring to when you mention his dual interpretation of time prophecies.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ejclark on December 12, 2010, 02:47:16 PM
I remember the two stories you referred to.  I've always believed that the closer a relationship we have with Jesus, the more we will recognize His "voice" speaking to our conscience.  We will actually know that it is Him that is impressing us to do something and not just our own thought or Satan's.  I guess I just thought Bill was referring to that kind of thing.  I've heard a lot of people say, "I felt impressed to do such and such."  Is Bill describing something different than that?  If we feel impressed, aren't we thinking that it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the impressing?
I believe he is describing something different than that.

As far as the Holy Spirit communicating with us through our conscience, if I understand you correctly, then yes, I agree with you.  When we train our consciences in the way of the Lord, the Holy Spirit will work to impress things home, convince us of truth, instill in our hearts those things Jesus teaches.  And in later times when we should witness for Him, the Holy Spirit will impress our minds into taking action, bringing to our memories the things to do and say.  But as we decide what action to take, that takes place in our reasoning processes.  Same as while I am writing this to you, in my mind I'm going through this as if I'm speaking directly to you.  But the Holy Spirit is not acting as a third party participant here on my end.  I'm basing what I'm reasoning out in my mind according to what I have previously taught my conscience, and the Holy Spirit has impressed into my conscience as truth (at least my understanding of truth).  But when I'm confronted with a witnessing situation and the Holy Spirit impresses me to go forward, if I resist or wait or try to reason out a way to avoid witnessing, that happens in my reasoning processes.  I'm not arguing with the Holy Spirit.  If I decide to go forward and witness, it's my reasoning processes instructed by my conscience that moves me forward into action.  Not the Holy Spirit directly, but indirectly.  If it was the Holy Spirit that took control over us each time we entered into a spiritual situation, then why didn't He take control over Adam and Eve when they were confronted by Satan.  Why didn't He take over in Cain before he killed Able, why didn't He take over in the minds of the Pharisees when they brought Mary when caught in adultery to Jesus.  The Holy Spirit does not exercise that kind of mind control over us.

Numbers 12:6-8 "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.  With him will I speak mouth to mouth."

Moses is the only prophet with whom God spoke mouth to mouth.  Whether it happened out loud where other people heard it, or whether it happened in his conscience, we don't know.  But when it comes to God communicating with us in an audible way, it's only through a prophet.  That is why I believe Mr. Liversidge stands on the same belief as Graeme Bradford in that in this day and age, we all have the ability to have the gift of prophecy.  And in their way of thinking (again I'm surmising, I don't know this for fact) if they are going to hear the voice of God in a way that takes the place of Old Testament Gift of Prophecy, then it will be some sort of audible voice and two way conversation with the Holy Spirit.  Because obviously it won't be God the Father nor The Son.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 13, 2010, 09:59:42 PM
Quote from Mike Tucker

"God desires to be in an intimate relationship with each of His children.

"The basis for all Christian life and ministry is the lived experience of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

"There are spiritual practices that help a person notice and respond to God's overtures for relationship. These include, but are not limited to, contemplative prayer, meditation on Scripture, worship, fasting, retreat, interpersonal relationships, and guided reflection on everyday living. "


Does an intimate relationship with Christ come from seeking a "spiritual experience" through  certain spiritual exercises or does it come from the sometimes difficult but simple process of total surrender to Christ?

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 13, 2010, 11:04:30 PM

I believe that our church is in danger from SF, and I am wondering if it is not the final development of what Ellen White warned would be the "omega of apostasy" that would come into the church just before the end, and of which she said that she "fears" for our people. We should make it part of our regular prayers that God will turn this around. I dread the fact that this will be broadcast to the world over the church's "official TV sattelite station."

 We read where they plan to hold seminars in various churches & colleges for lay members & other ones for pastors & ministerial students. We wonder how much deeper they will go into this for ministers than for the lay members. We don't know yet exactly what they will teach, do we?  If it wasn't like other "Spiritual Formation" seminars, why would they call it by the same name & why base it on the same text book? The same text book widely used by other protestants & Catholics?   Why not use "The Sanctified Life", "Steps to Christ", & the wealth of EGW material as well as the Bible?  Do we need anything else to effect reformation in our people?  We do appear to be in the closing time!  Every wind of doctrine is blowing! There are counterfeits all around us. We, too, believe this appears to be the "Omega of Apostasy"I  It also could very easily encompass other apostasies. Someone, who writes about SF said prayer is the one thing that every religion in the world has in common! They believe that this is a force that will unite the world! We do need revival! It starts with total surrender!

"Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will separate themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's second coming. The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work; and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power he will make it appear that God's special blessing is poured out; there will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest. Multitudes will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will seek to extend his influence over the Christian world."  {GC 464.1} 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 14, 2010, 01:12:21 AM
Amen to those posts Restoretruth. Ellen White wrote that as the time approaches when God will pour out the Latter Rain Satan will stir up false revivals. I have always thought that we were seeing this fulfilled in the charismatic movement that has swept through the other denominations. I wonder if this is a manifestation in our church of the false revival that she warned about.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on December 14, 2010, 04:17:10 AM
I have always thought that we were seeing this fulfilled in the charismatic movement that has swept through the other denominations. I wonder if this is a manifestation in our church of the false revival that she warned about.

I've been thinking along the same lines for some time, now, and I wonder if its current manifestation in the SDA Church is part of the Omega that the SOP speaks about.  It comes out of eastern mysticism, as did Pantheism, which was the Alpha of apostasy.

Also, statements like the one from Tucker ("There are spiritual practices that help a person notice and respond to God's overtures for relationship.") make me nervous.  Sorry, but it sounds Catholic to me.  "Spiritual practices?"  That's a loaded term, and, at the least, smacks of "works," to me.  If he means something legitimate why borrow phraseology from philosophies which have their origin in eastern mysticism?
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 14, 2010, 10:00:34 AM
I agree Raven. I noticed Tucker's statement as well. The "spiritual practices" that are described in the versions of spiritual formation that I have seen are derived from eastern mysticism via the Jesuits. It was the Jesuits who brought it in to the Christian churches. I recall reading an article by an Adventist minister who at one time actively promoted and taught SF (but later rejected it). In the article he acknowledged the Jesuit source, and said "There are things we can learn from the Jesuits." (paraphrased.)

The danger, as I see it is that probably 99% of our members have never heard of spiritual formation and and probably the majority of pastors and other church leaders don't really know anything about it. So when it is promoted by a prominent ministry within the church, they see no reason to question it.

I see a parallell between this  situation and the late 60s and early 70s when rock based worldly music began to be brought into the church. Very few church members or leaders had the information or the background in music to be able to confront the danger, even though they may not have liked what was happening. Those who did understand what was happening and had the information and background to confront the problem apparantly did not have access to Adventist media. There were exceptions, such as Pastor O'Ffill. I believe I still have a Review article that he and Dale Martin wrote on the subject of the "Worship Wars." Unless God intervenes, I am afraid this will sweep through the church just like the music did.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 15, 2010, 10:11:04 PM
[Here are some links on prayer In the excellent tradition of the VOP! -- All on the right kind of prayer!]

VOICE OF PROPHECY -- Resources on Prayer <http://www.vop.com/article.php?id=741 (http://www.vop.com/article.php?id=741)>

Some of God's Greatest Promises 
< http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Some_of_God_s_Greatest_Promises.pdf (http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Some_of_God_s_Greatest_Promises.pdf)>

Twelve Tips for Power in Prayer
<http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Twelve_Tips_for_Power_in_Prayer.pdf (http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Twelve_Tips_for_Power_in_Prayer.pdf)>

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 16, 2010, 01:47:28 AM
SPIRITUAL FORMATION  VS THE FAITH OF JESUS

Spiritual Formation, Contemplative Prayer, and associated teachings, lead to a false Gospel and a false hope. Some focuse on the desire for a closer relationship to Christ, of knowing Him intimately through receiving a feeling of being enveloped in a warm loving presence. And some have this experience daily. This is not accomplished through faith, but through various rituals, and in various forms of prayer. It appears to leave out the Atonement, obedience, faith and the righteousness of Christ!  Here are some notes from a study we made recently on the Faith of Jesus. There are many Bible texts that could be added to this. Perhaps someone knows some good texts or other SOP quotes that they might want to add, on Faith or on Christ's blood. Aren't there some on the devil fleeing at the mention of Christ's blood? [The headings below are supplied.]

IT IS BY FAITH IN CHRIST'S ATONEMENT THAT WE RECEIVE POWER FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS!

"Through the atonement of the Son of God alone could power be given to man to establish him in righteousness, and make him a fit subject for heaven. The blood of Christ is the eternal antidote for sin. ...The preciousness of the Offering will be more fully realized as the blood-washed throng more fully comprehend how God has made a new and living way for the salvation of men, through the union of the human and the divine in Christ. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 3}, December 30, 1889 par. 2}

WE MUST BELIEVE IN CHRIST'S BLOOD & CLAIM HIS MERITS!

"...  the blood of Christ that cleanseth from all sin is efficacious in behalf of those only who believe in its merit, and who present it before the Father....."       {GW 162.1}

FAITH IN CHRIST'S ABILITY TO SAVE US FULLY IS THE FAITH OF JESUS!

"...What constitutes the faith of Jesus...? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour ... He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. ... faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.3}

THE FAITH OF JESUS NEEDS TO BE PROCLAIMED AS MUCH AS GOD'S COMMANDMENTS!

"The third angel's message is the proclamation of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. The commandments of God have been proclaimed, but the faith of Jesus Christ has not been proclaimed by Seventh-day Adventists as of equal importance, the law and the gospel going hand in hand...".        {3SM 172.2}

CHRIST PROTECTS US FROM SATAN'S ATTACKS

"How careful is the Lord Jesus to give no occasion for a soul to despair. How He fences about the soul from Satan's fierce attacks." {OHC 49.2}

CHRIST DOES NOT LEAVE US TO PERISH IN OUR SINS

"If through manifold temptations we are surprised or deceived into sin, He does not turn from us and leave us to perish. No, no, that is not our Saviour... " {OHC 49.2}

HE KNOWS HOW TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE TEMPTED

"He was tempted in all points like as we are; and having been tempted, He knows how to succor those who are tempted."  
{OHC 49.2}

OUR CRUCIFIED LORD IS PLEADING FOR US IN THE PRESENCE OF THE FATHER

"Our crucified Lord is pleading for us in the presence of the Father at the throne of grace. His atoning sacrifice we may plead for our pardon, our justification,and our sanctification". {OHC 49.2}

FAITH IN THE LAMB SLAIN IS OUR ONLY HOPE

The Lamb slain is our only hope. Our faith looks up to Him, grasps Him as the One who can save to the uttermost,and the fragrance of the all-sufficient offering is accepted of the Father. {OHC 49.2}
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 16, 2010, 01:09:40 PM
[Here are some links on prayer In the excellent tradition of the VOP! -- All on the right kind of prayer!]

VOICE OF PROPHECY -- Resources on Prayer <http://www.vop.com/article.php?id=741 (http://www.vop.com/article.php?id=741)>

Some of God's Greatest Promises 
< http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Some_of_God_s_Greatest_Promises.pdf (http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Some_of_God_s_Greatest_Promises.pdf)>

Twelve Tips for Power in Prayer
<http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Twelve_Tips_for_Power_in_Prayer.pdf (http://www.vop.com/site/1/e-books_posted/Twelve_Tips_for_Power_in_Prayer.pdf)>


Thank you for this study Restoretruth. This is just what is needed. I believe that we need to be educated to recognize spiritual foirmation, discern its errors, and be able to counter them with Bible texts and Spirit of Prophecy quotes.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: GraceVessel on December 16, 2010, 02:40:05 PM
Although I agree with the general thrust regarding being concerned about the Spiritual Formation concerns -- and alot of this goes back to how one "discovers" God in the first place and what one views as a "blblical process" on how to get to know God personally.  With Enoch it was... "a rewarder of those that diligently seek him"... which means... getting "the glow".. but getting x amount of credit in your "faith" account to feel good ... doesnt cut it...

Right now, I dont even feel God's presence much because I am weighed down with some much detail and pressure and whatnot from my wifes health status..... but I know that in the past God has provided me evidence that His grace is evident in my life in how He has watched over me and provided for all my needs on His schedule.   Part of the problem I have with the SDA church stems from the "group think methodology" of evangelism... Any sharing ... given the disinformation our the culture that we live in in NA...is very much time and interest deluded (TV, Internet,Games, Social clubs etc... which to a great extent consumes most peoples non work time attenion -- which brings me to my last point...

I've been to a Seeds conference put on by the local conference... it was more like going to an Amway convention ...with the focus on bringing people "into the church".  People come to you and ask to join and to fellowship based on they way they are treated and the attitbutes they see in you... Just "going to church" doesnt cut it.  Most people are "been there dont that"... cya...our golden time of spreading the gospel pretty much non-hindered was the mid 50-mid 70's... it's an Internet/Facebook/Twitter culture now.  That's the place you reach a large number of people.... House to house will reach more than any mailings, TV ads, or newspaper posts (these are watered down by the number of people that never view this informative resource.

Ultimately... my main concern is that we water down our understanding of true sprituality to the point that we sell out to get more "people in the seats" to improve the tithe base... we are a company AND a church and people have to be paid. Retirement payments etc etc... it's a business.  My thinking is that the "powers that be" in the church now higher up are looking at the max numbers to maintain tithe base.  It's simple economics 101.

Doesn't mean I still dont give tithe or that i am a conspiracy theorist... but it's obvious even to the casual observer that we are taking a massive hit with members dying over the next 20 years... and the statistical spread of those that are active tithe givers are 50 years or older.. and with the addition of less younger people being retained in the church... a major reduction in overall tithes and offerings will soon be realized.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on December 16, 2010, 04:03:41 PM
You make some good points, GV.  Until we divest ourselves of the corporate mentality we will continue to lose ground.  While it is true that the church needs a good treasurer and the the books must be balanced, if we narrow our vision to ledgers and balance sheets (as well as church membership figures) we lose our focus on the most important thing:  spreading the gospel as the Lord leads--and then leave it up to Him to fill the pews.  That's His job.  We are the sowers.  He is responsible for the growth. 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 23, 2010, 11:35:23 PM
The Omega Rebellion

Has anyone read this new book by Elder Rick Howard? It is published by Remnant Publications.  We just became aware of it & we intend to order it. If someone has read it please let us know what you think! Here is info from the website. <http://store.remnantpublications.com/store/p/1679-The-Omega-Rebellion.aspx>  It is also at the ABC.

The Omega Rebellion
Item #: RP1080
Availability: In Stock
Usually ships In 2-3 Business Days
Price: $13.99

    * Details

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 24, 2010, 12:59:56 AM
I ordered the book a few days ago. It sounds like what we need to be able to educate others and expose the dangers of this deception which can be ver subtle and sound very attractive, and is apparantly promoted by some prominent leaders.

I noticed on the NAD website that it hosted some meetings recently that featured a Southern Baptist pastor named Henry Blackaby. A google search reveals some disturbing information about his theology and teaching. His book "Experiencing God: Knowing and Doing the Will of God," has sold millions of copies. Blackaby teachings are unbiblical and leads down a wrong path.

He teaches that God speaks to us individually in the same way that God spoke to Noah, for example.

The following are excerpts from a review of Blackaby's book mentioned earlier.

"Does God really speak to His people in our day? Will He reveal to you where He is working when He wants to use you? Yes! God has not changed. He still speaks to His people. If you have trouble hearing God speak, you are in trouble at the very heart of your Christian experience."

"Only God can give you the kind of specific directions to accomplish His purposes in His ways. After God spoke to Noah about building an ark, Noah knew the size, the type of materials, and how to put it together. When God spoke to Moses he was very specific about the details."

[In other words, if God is not speaking to us individually and giving specific instructions, our Christian experience is inadequate. He describes how we may "sense" what God wants us to do.]

" Blackaby's system of understanding the will of God is purely subjective. Although God is still speaking today as in Old Testament times, we have to strain ourselves to "sense" the voice of God, and we have to sort out the conflicting "senses" of what God is saying....
The objective basis of our faith, God's complete and all sufficient revelation in the Bible has been replaced by the quicksand of uncertainty as we seek to to hear God speaking through the Bible, prayer, circumstances and the church.

"The examples he gives, taken from church planting experiences in Canada, deal heavily with such questions as church bugets and building programs. On page 169, he dismisses church members who might vote against such proposals by the leadership as being either "so out of fellowship with the Lord that they could not hear His voidce, " or else "purposely disobedient." It is no wonder that Blackaby would be irritated with church members who would dare to vote against proposals handed down from heaven in the same manner as for Noah's ark and the tabernacle,"

The author of the book review is apparantly a dispensationalist who discounts the whole notion of God speaking to as in Bible times. But he does point out the dangers in Blackaby's theology. Those who buy into it would probably have little trouble buying into Spiritual Formation.

Here is the full article:
http://rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/BookReviews/exp_god/blackaby.htm


Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on December 24, 2010, 06:49:27 AM
A few years ago Brian Neumann came out with a book, entitled "Changing our Religion: Unleashing the Omega."  It's been awhile since I read it, but I remember that it made sense.  It might be worth reading, along with this new book.  It's available from "Amazing Discoveries."
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 26, 2010, 05:55:43 PM

I noticed on the NAD website that it hosted some meetings recently that featured a Southern Baptist pastor named Henry Blackaby. A google search reveals some disturbing information about his theology and teaching. His book "Experiencing God: Knowing and Doing the Will of God," has sold millions of copies. Blackaby teachings are unbiblical and leads down a wrong path.

He teaches that God speaks to us individually in the same way that God spoke to Noah, for example.

The following are excerpts from a review of Blackaby's book mentioned earlier.

"Does God really speak to His people in our day? Will He reveal to you where He is working when He wants to use you? Yes! God has not changed. He still speaks to His people. If you have trouble hearing God speak, you are in trouble at the very heart of your Christian experience."

"Only God can give you the kind of specific directions to accomplish His purposes in His ways. After God spoke to Noah about building an ark, Noah knew the size, the type of materials, and how to put it together. When God spoke to Moses he was very specific about the details."

[In other words, if God is not speaking to us individually and giving specific instructions, our Christian experience is inadequate. He describes how we may "sense" what God wants us to do.]

" Blackaby's system of understanding the will of God is purely subjective. Although God is still speaking today as in Old Testament times, we have to strain ourselves to "sense" the voice of God, and we have to sort out the conflicting "senses" of what God is saying....
The objective basis of our faith, God's complete and all sufficient revelation in the Bible has been replaced by the quicksand of uncertainty as we seek to to hear God speaking through the Bible, prayer, circumstances and the church.

"The examples he gives, taken from church planting experiences in Canada, deal heavily with such questions as church bugets and building programs. On page 169, he dismisses church members who might vote against such proposals by the leadership as being either "so out of fellowship with the Lord that they could not hear His voidce, " or else "purposely disobedient." It is no wonder that Blackaby would be irritated with church members who would dare to vote against proposals handed down from heaven in the same manner as for Noah's ark and the tabernacle,"

The author of the book review is apparantly a dispensationalist who discounts the whole notion of God speaking to as in Bible times. But he does point out the dangers in Blackaby's theology. Those who buy into it would probably have little trouble buying into Spiritual Formation.

Here is the full article:
http://rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/BookReviews/exp_god/blackaby.ht


Larry, it is unbelievable that the NAD would host the kind of heresy that Henry Blackaby and his son teach.

Here is another link and article on this subject:

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/04/non-sola-scriptura-blackaby-view-of.html

Stan
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 26, 2010, 06:43:14 PM
Larry, it is unbelievable that the NAD would host the kind of heresy that Henry Blackaby and his son teach.

Here is another link and article on this subject:

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/04/non-sola-scriptura-blackaby-view-of.html

Stan
Yes, Stan, sometimes I wonder how far the NAD leadership will go before a major crisis is precipitated. (Such as the straight testimony of the True Witness to the church of Laodicea that many will rise up against and which will cause the long expected "shaking.") They do not seem to be on the same page as Elder Wilson and the new GC leadership.

I have heard that a new Sabbath School Quarterly will be prepared and will be "inserted into the schedule." The topic will be Revival and Reformation. If they want it soon, they will have to forego the usual 5 years or so lead time, and the time it takes for the manuscript to be reviewed by the several committee members who may make additions, changes and deletions, before it is ready for publication. I believe that if it is assigned to a solid Bible believing and SOP believing Bible scholar, the content would need only limited editing. I can think of a few people who I would like to see infolved.

I do not see how a SS quarterly can be produced that is focused on revival and reformation without dealing with the conterfeit. This would undoubtedly rock the boat and offend some proment church leaders. But IMHO, if this is not done, iit is a pointless endeavor.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Dora on December 27, 2010, 08:14:25 AM
Larry, what about the new NAD president, Dan Jackson? He spoke at Thompsonville, IL church recently, and I was told that he had much the same message that Elder Wilson has presented. What do you know about him?
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 27, 2010, 10:30:24 AM
Larry, what about the new NAD president, Dan Jackson? He spoke at Thompsonville, IL church recently, and I was told that he had much the same message that Elder Wilson has presented. What do you know about him?
Dora, it is good to hear that Dan Jackson seems to be following the lead of Ted Wilson. If that is his intention, I believe he will need a lot of prayers and the power of God  to turn the NAD around. Elder Jackson came from being president of the Adventist church in Canada. I don't know anything about him other than that. I saw an interview of him by Jim Gilley, but I didn't learn much about him from that interview. I don't know much about the church in Canada. From news reports, Canada is perhaps even further along the road of restricting freedom of speech in the area of religion than the US is.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 28, 2010, 10:46:17 PM
Here is a link to two Documents written in 2008 RE: Spiritual Formation in our SDA church. Some of you may have read these. We had not. They reveal a lot about contemplative prayer among some of our leaders. I hesitate to post these as I don't know where this person now stands on the issue. If you read the critique of the book & then the letters you will see why this is so important, if you don't already!

<http://sdaomega.wordpress.com/ (http://sdaomega.wordpress.com/)>
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 29, 2010, 12:37:37 AM
Here is a link to two Documents written in 2008 RE: Spiritual Formation in our SDA church. Some of you may have read these. We had not. They reveal a lot about contemplative prayer among some of our leaders. I hesitate to post these as I don't know where this person now stands on the issue. If you read the critique of the book & then the letters you will see why this is so important, if you don't already!

<http://sdaomega.wordpress.com/ (http://sdaomega.wordpress.com/)>
Restoretuth, thank you for posting that material. The critique of the book was helpful. The discussion between pastor Whitcome and the author was very revealing. It appears that this man is ensnared in this dangerous deception. I am thankful for Pastor Whitcome's ability to see through errors in the arguments of the author as he trys to defend this material.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 29, 2010, 05:30:21 PM
   "As mentioned, in His infinite wisdom, and for reasons not completely understood, God has given Satan complete control over the powers of spiritualism to cause the world to believe what he will....
   "Those who venture into that territory, having the truth of Scripture and the messages of warning in the Spirit of Prophecy, are making an intelligent decision to ignore those warnings and disobey God." (The Omega Rebellion p. 23)



Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 30, 2010, 12:37:31 AM
The paragraph below deals with the end result of contemplative prayer. It is from a seminar by Dennis Priebe called "EXPERIENCE-DRIVEN CHRISTIANITY".  Priebe has a lot more to say in this seminar about the emerging church. It's worth reading again even if  you have already read it !  The link is <http://www.dennispriebe.com/new/node/49 (http://www.dennispriebe.com/new/node/49)>
 
"The New Spiritualism"

"Listen to one young writer describe his method of praying.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on December 30, 2010, 07:30:42 AM
Very interesting, Restoretruth.  Surely this type of thing is the Omega deception.  I want to read Priebe's seminar soon when I get a chance.

This all reminds me of my younger years when I lived in Loma Linda (1970s).  I attended a Friday night gathering of young people at someones home, and the associate pastor of the Loma Linda University Church was leading out.  I recall he demonstrated how one could relax their mind--what now I recognize as a type of pre-meditative state.  

For some reason I recognized that this was not biblical and never attended those meetings again.  However, in the 1980s I went through a phase where I thought I was reading too much SOP and, of course, started filling the void with other materials.  One book I read was by Catherine Marshall (who also wrote "A Man Called Peter").  This book was owned by my very conservative Adventist grandparents, so my guard was down.  

Marshall wrote about emptying ones mind to hear God speak to you. I was seeking direction at the time in solving a problem, so tried it .  I won't go into detail, but suffice it to say, I never did it again, and repent of my foolishness.

I think one of the reasons that Adventists will be fooled with this type of thing is that they have abandoned the SOP.  God gave us these writings for a reason, and we are in danger without their instruction--in my humble opinion.  When I started reading them again, it was like my eyes were opened.

Vicki
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 30, 2010, 10:44:16 AM
I think one of the reasons that Adventists will be fooled with this type of thing is that they have abandoned the SOP.  God gave us these writings for a reason, and we are in danger without their instruction--in my humble opinion.  When I started reading them again, it was like my eyes were opened.

Vicki

Yes, we totally agree! Possibly the reason that so many have turned away from or been against  EGW's writings is because she has consistently held up the Bible standard of righteousness in Christ. Many people don't want such a high standard! When we lived in Montana there was a family(neighbors) that attended several evangelistic meetings in our church & then abruptly stopped coming. The father told me that they loved our friendly church but our standards were just too high!  EGW'S "Steps To Christ" is highly regarded by many non-SDA's,  but one well known evangelical leader (I don't remember his name) called it "the most dangerous book ever written". Again, many think that the standards she expressed in her writings are just to high! But those standards are the same as the Bible's standards. Her words always uplift the Bible!

"Every day you should learn something new from the Scriptures. Search them as for hid treasures, for they contain the words of eternal life. Pray for wisdom and understanding to comprehend these holy writings. {CCh 86.4}

"If you would do this you would find new glories in the word of God; you would feel that you had received new and precious light on subjects connected with the truth, and the Scriptures would be constantly receiving a new value in your estimation.   {CCh 87.1}

"The truths of the Bible, received, will uplift the mind from its earthliness and debasement. If the word of God were appreciated as it should be, both young and old would possess an inward rectitude, a strength of principle, that would enable them to resist temptation."  {CCh 87.2}
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 30, 2010, 11:43:55 AM
Vicki and Restoretruth, here are a couple of statements from Rick Howard's book that agree with your posts about the danger of rejecting the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy.

..."Herein lies the danger of "the alpha and omega": Refusal to follow the divine counsel given in the Spirit of Prophecy concerning these coming dangers gives Satan the right of access to the minds of those individuals and, because of their refusal, they will be sediuced by supernatural powers." (the Onega Rebellion, p 94)

"In the book Living Temple is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow and will be received by those not willing to heed the warnings God has given." (1SM, p 200)

The implication that there are "rules of engagement" between Christ and Satan by which Satan can claim free access to a person is consistent with what Roger Morneau wrote.  Morneau, like Rick Howard, also had direct experience with the occult. It appears that those who would prefer to set aside the Spirit of Prophecy can be in much greater danger than they realize.

An important point that Rick Howard makes, is that according to certain statements by Ellen White, which he provides, the alpha and omega are not two different apostasiys. The omega is an extension of the alpha. There has been a lot of unneccessary speculation among Adventist concerning exactly what the omega of heresies might be. Speculation is not necessary. It is a form of spiritualism in religious garb that is subtle and can appear very attractive to Adventsts who seek a more intimate relationship with Jesus but who have either have neglected or rejected the guidance of the Spirit of Prophecy, and have a superficial knowledge of the Bible.  

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on December 30, 2010, 12:42:26 PM
An important point that Rick Howard makes, is that according to certain statements by Ellen White, which he provides, the alpha and omega are not two different apostasiys. The omega is an extension of the alpha. There has been a lot of unneccessary speculation among Adventist concerning exactly what the omega of heresies might be. Speculation is not necessary. It is a form of spiritualism in religious garb that is subtle and can appear very attractive to Adventsts who seek a more intimate relationship with Jesus but who have either have neglected or rejected the guidance of the Spirit of Prophecy, and have a superficial knowledge of the Bible.  

Well said, Larry.  Having experienced how easy it is to be deceived, I fully agree.  It's especially dangerous if we assume we are too "clever" to be seduced by error.  We must have our armor on at ALL times! 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on December 30, 2010, 02:37:50 PM

"In the book Living Temple is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow and will be received by those not willing to heed the warnings God has given." (1SM, p 200)

The implication that there are "rules of engagement" between Christ and Satan by which Satan can claim free access to a person is consistent with what Roger Morneau wrote.  Morneau, like Rick Howard, also had direct experience with the occult. It appears that those who would prefer to set aside the Spirit of Prophecy can be in much greater danger than they realize.

Very sobering thoughts Larry!  There are so many warnings in the writings of EG White that can save people from deceptions. We do have a responsibility to warn others of the dangers of Contemplative Prayer & other spiritualistic deceptions that are threatening all of God's people, in our church as well as the world in general.

For any who wish to study this topic more, the last nine chapters of Counsels for the Church (cch) are very pertinent to this discussion. If one doesn't have Counsels for the Church or the EGW CD, you can access all of the EGW published writings @ <http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp (http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp)>  You can also buy it at the ABC for about $20.

58.   Satan
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 31, 2010, 12:22:19 AM
Here is a link to two Documents written in 2008 RE: Spiritual Formation in our SDA church. Some of you may have read these. We had not. They reveal a lot about contemplative prayer among some of our leaders. I hesitate to post these as I don't know where this person now stands on the issue. If you read the critique of the book & then the letters you will see why this is so important, if you don't already!

<http://sdaomega.wordpress.com/ (http://sdaomega.wordpress.com/)>

Restore,
Thanks for posting this. No apology needs to be made for exposing this stuff. Think about it. Review and Herald, supposedly a solid SDA publishing house is publishing the kind of material that will lead people directly to Eastern mysticism and spirtualism.

The reviewer of this book is really being kind, although it is a good review.

Here is an excerpt summarizing this book and its problems:

Although the author of Hunger wants to teach ways to still the hunger of the soul, some of the recommended methods directly counter the instructions of inspiration. Thus they can lead only to a counterfeit spiritual experience. The meditative practices of breath prayer, lectio divina and the Jesus Prayer are part of a mystical tradition that spans many forms of spirituality, all of which are incompatible with the Adventist understanding of the nature of God and how He makes Himself known to us.

These practices originated in Eastern pagan religions, were adopted by the Desert Fathers of the Catholic Church, and are now being offered to the Protestant community. While the goal of achieving higher spirituality is commendable, the method is flawed. Deeper spirituality is experienced through sanctifying obedience to the Word of God.

It seems futile to attempt to Christianize practices of pagan origin, such as breath prayer, lectio divina, and the Jesus Prayer, and attempt to use them in our worship of God. We cannot use practices based on intrinsically false view of God to worship our Creator God who wishes to have an intimate relationship with us. We cannot expect God to work through this modality by requesting that He will, any more than we can pray over a Ouija board and expect that God will answer our questions.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 31, 2010, 12:26:51 AM
You should read the list of recommended authors at the very end of the book by Dybdahl:

Authors Recommended in Hunger

It is of some concern that the author of Hunger recommends some books whose authors promote not only mystical aspects of the spiritual life but also some who specifically encourage the study of non-Christian (pagan) applications:

Thomas R. Kelly
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 31, 2010, 12:59:39 PM
That is true Stan, and Ellen White gave very specific warnings that Satan would mount an attack on the God's remnant church just before the end using subtle deceptions that would be even more dangerous than the spiritualism that was in Kellogg's book "The Living Temple."


BTW, I know I mentioned this earlier, but In an effort to respond to the fact that Review and Herald Publishing has been operating in the red for some time, Dwight Hall, the owner of Remnant Publications who published Rick Howard's book "The Omega Rebellion" has accepted the position of Director of Marketing for Review and Herald Publishing. Perhaps bro. Hall will be able to make soime changes in the policies of the organization. All I can say is that those who are running our publishing houses would do well  to remember what happened at Battle Creek and why. 

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on January 02, 2011, 11:44:34 PM
In order to have all of the information in once place, three related threads that deal with spiritual formation have been merged into one.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on January 03, 2011, 01:50:15 AM
In order to have all of the information in once place, three related threads that deal with spiritual formation have been merged into one.

Thank you Larry! That was getting confusing!
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: GraceVessel on January 03, 2011, 07:12:52 AM
I agree that Spiritual Formation as described in this thread is a true danger and that trought inspiration.we must take heed to all pertinent instruction regarding the time in which we live. 

The major motivator for me (given my current experience with wife's cancer) is to attempt to "experience God" in a way where I know each day that He cares for me, that His grace is "personally sufficient for me", and also that He is in control of circumstances... after I boil it all down in my head... my thoughts... my heart.. I think and feel that my faith (belief that God is self existent and rewards those who diligently seek him) wants to tabernacle inside of me.  If God is not inside of me He cannot "write His law and testimony" upon the tables of my heart.

During a recent visit to someone that had surgery, the husband of this person that my wife and I visited... basically "feasts" on EGW writings... he basically has and "idealistic" view of how things should be... not a human view... he complained to me that he wishes that he didnt have a wife that has problems... it got me thinking about my wife with cancer... I consider it an honor to be there for her (not because I am getting brownie points)... it's because of who she is and the relationship we share.

(CONT)
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: GraceVessel on January 03, 2011, 07:20:48 AM
(cont)

Our relationship with God is two things... an earthly trust and a definite essence of sense of God's presence in everything we do.  How we define that (the Spiritual Formation doesnt acknowledge God as pre-emminent but Self worship).

It is my prayer and hope that when my wife passes.... I will desire God and search out after Him from deep in my heart.  Because I yearn for His presence.  I want to be vulnerable to experience more deeply a true experience of faith.

On one hand I agree with the extant "if you disagree with what EGW says you are disregarding truth and will be deceived"... however logically I cannot fully substantiate this premise... that guy with his wife ... truly "doesnt have a clue".. he voraciously reads EGW because its "easier" to have someone think for you... and you can "escape" to that idealistice world of what you "project" Christianity to be like or what you "want it to be".

With me Scripture study, understanding the overlay of the bible in history, contemplating the inerrancy of scripture and THEN comparing what Jesus additional showed me through the inspiration of His servant... provides me with a detailed road map of the times in which we live.  I know we are at the Omega because the bible declares it... and EGW also shares additional light that shows this to be true.

(cont).
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: GraceVessel on January 03, 2011, 07:30:13 AM
(cont)...

GULP..... if you cannot think for yourself... if you must depend on EGW to think for you.. If your motivation to obey is not rooted in an appreciation of God's character... then you are ONLY dealing with the "knowledge part" of truth.  Furthermore... EGW didnt worship herself... she worshipped Jesus and her strong faith in God and how she lived her life declares that... I want to know what inspired her to write that to learn lessons of faith from her AND understand her instruction -- I am not going to worship EGW.  There are some that do - hard to accept but it's a fact.

What happens after my wife passes.. i am naked before God... and I am trying to allow Him to prepare me for that.  My wife is my light, a true inspriation to me, and i KNOW (experienced) that she loves God, and is connected to him via a strong faith.  She tries to honor God in everything she does.  God prepares us by His providence to grow each day in faith.  To me that is the true -- spiritual formation of our character.

There are no short-cuts in a walk with Jesus.. you must be locked-on, called out, committed, focused, and what He has planned each day to truly experience a life of faith.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 03, 2011, 05:35:31 PM
GV,
When ever a person comes to Jesus, denies self, lifts and carries the cross Jesus designs for them only, and follows Jesus He will not only never disappoint them, He will exceed their wildest dreams and hopes.  

Ephesians 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Can you imagine coming out of the grave with a new immortal glorified body and hearing Father God's voice speaking to you and resonating in you, and covered with the rainbow and presence from around His Throne, and you are covered with a perception enhansing robe of light and glory and pulsing with unending vigor and youth and seeing your closest loved ones and friends and converts rising up like that too ?

If you can imagine that > Great news >  Scripture says it's even better than that .
Ephesians 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,  

Neither Bible Writers nor EGW could do it justice with words,  we just gotta be there and have it happen to us.

Adam was lonely in paradise.    Till Eve was brought to him and introduced.     Husbands make sure your wives, wives be ready to rise with your husbands as each a united pair a whole family, be sure they  have you by their side rising to enter paridise that day, kids be with parents and grandparents, do what it takes to rise all together, the ride will be worth it.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on January 04, 2011, 12:38:04 PM
(cont)...
There are no short-cuts in a walk with Jesus.. you must be locked-on, called out, committed, focused, and what He has planned each day to truly experience a life of faith.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Hi GV,
I really like what you said here...no truer words were spoken.  We can lock onto two words that start with TRU and they are truth and trust.   
I believe that many of us will soon be going through the very thing you are now, and may we learn from your experience all the emotions and feelings that will come upon us.
May God Be With You,
newbie

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 25, 2014, 07:51:28 AM
I would like to take a little impromptu  poll of those who regularly post here and would like to contribute.


Your church is playing every other Sabbath during the divine worship hour, the latest series by Derek Morris, " Radical Evidence." You have tried to talk to the head elder but he is not willing to research Derek Morris and says that he can find nothing wrong with the content of the messages and some people would like to continue with the series. He says he respects your concerns but does not agree.

Would you:

#1 Attend with cotton in your ears-
#2 Abstain from attending those Sabbaths and attend another SDA church ?
#3 Attend, listen, and enjoy.

Thank you for participating.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on August 25, 2014, 09:28:08 AM
I would like to take a little impromptu  poll of those who regularly post here and would like to contribute.


Your church is playing every other Sabbath during the divine worship hour, the latest series by Derek Morris, " Radical Evidence." You have tried to talk to the head elder but he is not willing to research Derek Morris and says that he can find nothing wrong with the content of the messages and some people would like to continue with the series. He says he respects your concerns but does not agree.

Would you:

#1 Attend with cotton in your ears-
#2 Abstain from attending those Sabbaths and attend another SDA church ?
#3 Attend, listen, and enjoy.

Thank you for participating.

#2
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on August 25, 2014, 12:31:10 PM
There was some talk about Derek Morris giving up his beliefs in SF.
But here is a link that raises serious questions about his credibility. 

http://www.adventherald.org/SDA_Member/Topics/Spiritual%20Formation/DerekMorrisEmail2.pdf

Is he still the editor of Ministry Magazine?
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 25, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
There was some talk about Derek Morris giving up his beliefs in SF.
But here is a link that raises serious questions about his credibility. 

http://www.adventherald.org/SDA_Member/Topics/Spiritual%20Formation/DerekMorrisEmail2.pdf

Is he still the editor of Ministry Magazine?

Yes.

I noticed something interesting while watching his presentation "Radical Protection". I  paused and recorded about 17 still pictures. They are most interesting and posted over on The Remnant Online SDA discussion forum. This DVD was mailed to me free apparently from the publishers.  I have no idea why. I assumed that a number of them were mailed out as a pilot program but after talking to all my friends realized that apparently no one else received  them. The message Radical Protection as far as I can tell had not error but it does not present present truth. There is not so much as a hint of giving the trumpet a certain sound and no SOP as SDAs know it to be. His flagrant purposeful poses with his hands are telling and mirror the Catholic symbols. This presentation was produced AFTER his "repentance" and is not a surprise given his past.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on August 25, 2014, 03:07:55 PM
this is very sad to me but we were warned that many bright lights will go out in the end times
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on August 25, 2014, 05:03:40 PM
#2

Fortunately I don't expect that to happen with our current pastor.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 25, 2014, 06:45:58 PM
this is very sad to me but we were warned that many bright lights will go out in the end times

No, disrespect to Derek Morris but I have never seen any of his work that came across to me as a bright light.
At best his messages have been largely generic. I think his appeal is that he looks like a young child. I do not mean that negatively. It comes across innocent and sincere.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 25, 2014, 07:27:24 PM
#2

Fortunately I don't expect that to happen with our current pastor.

We are in pastor transition and the new, young, prospective, youth pastor  from Loma Linda will be preaching for the first time in our church next Sabbath. Why am I a little uneasy about it ? So far, I have not been able to find any info on him.

Our new young former pastor they just sent off to Andrews to be "educated." I encouraged him to stay close to his Bible while there.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 25, 2014, 10:09:24 PM
Some years ago I read an article that Morris had written about sf and it was clear that he was convinced of its value. If I recall correctly he even admitted that it came from the Jesuits and said that there are things we can learn from the Jesuits. After he was appointed editor of Ministry magazine we contacted him and asked him about his involvement with sf and he said that he now knows that it is a dangerous mixture of truth and error.

The fact that the influences he allowed himself to be subjected to, especially inducing altered states of consciousness in himself under the direction of a person, possibly a RC priest, he may be an unreliable witness when explaining his current attitude towards spiritual formation and his current involvement.

I believe that there is a real danger that there can be lingering consequences when a person gets too deeply involved in such things. It is a form of spiritualism. Doors can be opened that the person cannot close. I am not saying that has happened to Morris, but that is a great danger that is being brought into the church via the One Project and other avenues.

Another concern is the possibility that carefully crafted subliminal messages can be presented to an audience by a speaker who has a secret agenda and has had the experience and the training to do it. That was kindergarten stuff for Dr. Milton Erickson. He was a psychiatrist and used such techniques for teaching and therapy. No connection with anything spiritual that I ever heard of.



 
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 26, 2014, 07:43:14 AM
 Morris is subtle but like some at Andrews he believes in " bad Spiritual Formation" and "good Spiritual Formation,'  kind of like good paganism and bad paganism. One problem is that the supposedly "good spiritual formation still uses resources that hook people up with Loyola and therefore bad spiritual formation. I would like to know why some of our people like to use words coined by Jesuits anyway ? Why would faithful church leaders not want to distance themselves from Jesuit lingo ? I believe the answer to that question is not comforting at best and is evil at worst.

I do not know if the flurry of flagrant hand-signals ( that Mrs. White specifically commented on) that Morris used  (after his repentance) were intentional or not but they are too flagrant and frequent to be meaningless. It is possible  that he does not realize what he is doing. However, the original author of these knows exactly what he is doing. I believe this telegraphing whether intentional or not is indeed a signal to both God's people and to  Loyola's people as to who is behind Morris's work. One must see him in action to realize how flagrant some of these poses are. I have seen faithful SDAs do this on occasion but one can tell when it is not done accidently such as the slapping of the hand across the chest like when giving the pledge of allegiance.

When I first observed this man's sermons it was with, I think it was the sermon " Radical Prayer", his artist drew a full  size  chalk picture of Christ almost the entire time Morris was preaching. I noticed a very interesting hand configuration on the picture she drew. This was easy to see as the camera was focused most of the time on her drawing the picture. I contacted DK and asked him about the picture. He brushed it off  with, " I don't know anything about it, by the way what do you think of the message ?"

For someone highly educated in Loyola and monks like Lawrence (he praised them in his writings for preserving and handing down SF) to know so much about this subject  and yet be in the dark in regards to their hand signs is not believable for me. That would be like a former football player and not knowing what the referee meant when he threw a flag and made a hand gesture after a play that meant clipping.... or that someone who was a football fan did not know what "half time" means. I do not watch any football or have that desire but I used to and someone who has studied the activity is not ignorant about it.

The reaction I would have expected Morris to have had if he truly had repented of SF would be something like, " wow ! I had no idea. I'm going to have to be a lot more careful about what my artists draw."

His response was just like it is when he "repented" of SF. "Well, I don't know why God let me do that?"  That almost sounds like God was at fault for letting this man who was supposedly a well informed SDA minister running into the arms of Rome and then advocating that we send our children there. I do not think ANY SDA minister is that ignorant. Does it matter to him that he no doubt  led SDA youth into the mouth of the lion? If so, why the yawning statements? Imagine a minister abusing young boys and then saying, " I don't know why God let me do that."  and " that kind of activity is dangerous" and then subtly implying there is a good kind.

While Morris has never abused children physically is it  too much to say that to invite parents to send their children to Catholic venues of learning SF is abuse ? I would expect a most determined display of repentance on his behalf and a pleading before parents for forgiveness. No, I am not implying we insist on Derek Morris grovel in his confession before the people but I would expect more evidence of remorse than what has been given. Having led out in this as thee key role player I would expect Derek Morris and not Mark Finley to make the strongest case against SF. What I observed was minimal  with a total lack of any emotion, with a calculated disclaimer and not a whole lot of that, considering his role in bringing SF into the SDA church.

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 26, 2014, 07:45:23 AM
 
   continued...


  Imagine if David after his bout with Bathsheba simply sat with a panel and said, " I don't know why God let me do that. Adultery is not good and is dangerous." Imagine if Uriah had survived the battle and was  sitting in the audience without  arms. How would one expect David to portray his repentance before Uriah and the entire church? I could imagine David, coming before Israel and publically pleading on his knees before the people and especially Uriah, for forgiveness. I would expect him to say something like, " I am not worthy of being a minister of the gospel but if you will still have me and if the Lord would have me I will work in whatever capacity the church decides." Perhaps the church sees  this as no big deal. That's how SF got rolling in the first place..... " no big deal."

 There is a great deal of different between a Pentecostal pastor promoting SF and later converting to the SDA church and that of an ordained SDA pastor with great light shining on his path to walk into darkness. One is not trying to deny a man repentance but is the fruit of repentance to casually confess and then dabble in the same ? Was there a period of probation and careful analysis before granting this minister a promotion ?

Why as editor of Ministry Magazine was an article by a man involved in SF printed as opposed to being edited out under Morris's watch ? The rationalization to the effect of " this was already in line to be printed before I came on the scene " does not work for me. When Morris knows SF is "dangerous" and has the ability and plenty of time to edit the article out before it is printed but does not, this is a kin to saying " I did not know about it."  Oh really ?

There are far too many red flags that continue for any thinking SDA to close their eyes to this.

Do we expect too much out of our shepherds of the flock ...or... have we just been dumbed down and  manipulated with things like " you are just into conspiracy theories".     ?
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on August 26, 2014, 01:37:38 PM
Some very good points made in your posts CP & Larry.

Like Larry said, many of us on this forum expressed strong reservations about him being appointed Editor of Ministry mag. Larry received strong assurances that he had changed his view, but, as you pointed out CP, he seems very weak in opposing it! Any one who goes into an alpha state in contemplative prayer, allowing their mind to become blank & under the control of a spirit whom they think is God, is involved in Spiritualism & should not ever be in a position of influence in the church!
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 26, 2014, 07:56:27 PM
Some very good points made in your posts CP & Larry.

Like Larry said, many of us on this forum expressed strong reservations about him being appointed Editor of Ministry mag. Larry received strong assurances that he had changed his view, but, as you pointed out CP, he seems very weak in opposing it! Any one who goes into an alpha state in contemplative prayer, allowing their mind to become blank & under the control of a spirit whom they think is God, is involved in Spiritualism & should not ever be in a position of influence in the church!

Here is the bigger problem. Knowing what SDAs know about prophecy how can this man be given a promotion without so much as a hesitation. I mean, to go to Jesuits and promote their cause reveals total blindness at best. Where was/is the accountability ? I realize that SF  can be hard to nail down but the very principle of going to Babylon when we are to call people out of it is diametrically opposed to the gospel commission and Three Angel's Messages. Are we as a people that lethargic  so as to not see this for what it is?

Some in our church are going directly by and only by Morris' messages as of late. They are saying that he speaks well and they do not see error. But here is the error. He is not giving the trumpet a certain sound. From what I have viewed it is entirely Baptist and with no SOP. In other words, he is replacing and filling in for what should be pointed, present truth messages. It does not have to be blatant error. Just taking up space when others might be listening to Steve Bohr, Dwayne Lemon, or Randy Skeetes is enough. Not to present pointed, present truth is assisting in dumbing down the message.

 However, I believe there is more involved than this. He is keying off just what the RCC is keying on. For  instance his "Radical Evidence" is focusing specifically on the "Walk to Emmaus"  This is exactly the title that  the RCC is using in its "Walk to Emmaus" ecumenical movement exercised through the Methodist church. It is a cultish training ground,  a three day event, to teach our SDA church leaders to emphasize and promote joining with other churches. Derek Morris is part of the ecumenical movement that the RCC is implementing. The "Walk to Emmaus" is now becoming a buzz word or buzz phrase. When our people get warmed up to this phrase it is easier for those, thought leaders, to go to the "Walk to Emmaus event" held in the Methodist church. Our head elder has been attending this three day event for years. It is highly secretive in terms of what goes on there. Outsiders (even wives) are told little about it under the guise " we do not want to spoil the surprise for others." You can only attend by invitation. They target church leaders like pastors and elders etc.. They pick you up the first time so you have no other transportation. Some require that you give them your cell phone and watch while others do not require it but urge you to relinquish them so as "not to be distracted." One cannot just stop in and visit them. They typically cover the windows to "eliminate distractions." The three days ( Friday-Sunday) are jammed with activities every minute and of course meat and pork is served there. Several pastors from various churches preach  and there is a communion service daily. Some of the people have some kind of powerful emotional experience there. Sometimes they have participants color childish pictures. Some of the events have you staying up late at night and you are not allowed to go to bed until certain exercises are performed. In some of the events they wake the people up very very early telling them the night before they will we awakened early such as at 6:00 a.m. and then they are intentionally awakened at 5:00 or 4:00 a.m.. This is a form of sleep deprivation and creates confusion. The participants are urged to share their innermost problems and confessions. Often people break down with some kind of emotional release. Some get angry and want to leave. That is hard to do without a car and the participant is urged to stay the duration. Participants are urged to keep in touch on a weekly basis with other participants. This event is entirely ecumenical. Even some who think the event is a good one say that it has a cultlike flavor. It involves Spiritual Formation.

You may google this and read the testimonies of several. Our head elder confirmed  that the event he goes to involves much of what I mention and yet he thinks I exaggerate the concern.

Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 26, 2014, 07:57:18 PM
continued:

Even after I presented my concerns before the pastor and the head elder the H Elder went again anyway and he is weekly involved with the group. He has placed or allowed brochures in our foyer inviting our youth to attend Baptist church camps that are over the Sabbath. He allows anyone to make a public announcement in church such as a lady inviting our members to go to a breakfast at the Masonic Lodge. We have squelched much of this by speaking up but it seems to be almost a weekly thing.
    Now the head elder is playing Derek Morris DVDs every other Sabbath. He goes to Sunday churches to give his testimony. Many of our people think this is great because he gives a 5-10 minute testimony and mentions the Sabbath. However, it is likely he trades this brief speaking time  for listening to a woman pastor preach an entire sermon. Also, I wonder how many people know that his mere mention of the Sabbath is Saturday and not Sunday. He mentions the Sabbath in such a way that the people could easily think he meant Sunday. He does not say seventh day Sabbath.

I believe Derek Morris is front and center in the ecumenical movement still. He is merely ground breaking. That our head elder is playing his dvds is another indicator that this is all working together. He went to the RCC/Methodist "Walk to Emmaus" events and now he is playing Derek Morris' "Walk to Emmaus" message in church. Now when he goes back to the RCC/Methodist "Walk to Emmaus event next year he will likely have more support and may take someone with him because they are warmed up  to the buzz phrase and enjoyed Derek Morris's dvds. This is most clever by the devil. Take something biblical, key on it , warm people up to it with messages that are not error but are general and ecumenical in nature and do not convict and therefore offend anyone. Then lead them to RCC events that key on the same topics but are riddled through with error and spiritual exercises that are mind control.

Derek Morris has not stopped. He did his damage by bringing SF into the church for others to propagate. He proposed enough of a repentance to be accepted and promoted and now continues howbeit more subtly.
Should this seem strange ? Since the overwhelming majority of leadership and laity could not see a problem with him flagrantly promoting SF why should we think they will identify a problem now ? This is difficult to come against because Morris is not preaching recognizable error....... yet. He is simply preaching a message largely ecumenical, dumbed down, almost entirely free of SOP, and coming close to and into the RCC ecumenical movement with a bunch of RCC hand signals tossed in for good measure.

What is the response by many in our church to concerns like this?  "Over active imagination" and "conspiracy theory religion." Time will tell.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Tammy on August 27, 2014, 07:32:54 AM
Your description of the Walk to Emmaus weekend sounds so much like this deal called "Foundations" in the Portland, Oregon area.  Our academy pastors were heavily into it several years ago and were recruiting even the academy kids.  Cost quite a bit to go.  It involved much secrecy, husbands and wives kept apart for the weekend, emotional exercises, keeping in contact afterwards with a mentor, etc. 

Several in the church persisted in visiting with the conference leaders and finally the pastors were told to stop promoting it.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 27, 2014, 10:08:25 AM
Cp, what you describe sounds very much like Erhard Seminars Training and its spin-offs that became very big in the secular world in the 70s and 80s with their brainwashing techniques and the secretive, controlling, authoritarian approach of cults like Scientology etc. It is extremely foolish for Seventh-day Adventist leaders and members to be involved in that. There is much unmistakable biblical and SOP counsel against it. And just like the elder in your church, when people learn some "exciting new thing" that they now believe is beneficial they want to urge others to accept it. We see the same thing with the promoters of the emergent church, the One Project, and spiritual formation.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on August 27, 2014, 05:34:03 PM
this is very sad to me but we were warned that many bright lights will go out in the end times

No, disrespect to Derek Morris but I have never seen any of his work that came across to me as a bright light.
At best his messages have been largely generic. I think his appeal is that he looks like a young child. I do not mean that negatively. It comes across innocent and sincere.
he dominates hope channels
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on August 28, 2014, 09:59:27 AM
Here is the head elder's rationalizations:

 #1 I was able to leave a box of 100 Steps to Christ on the literature table.
(That's fine but nothing said about how many if any were taken.)

#2 I was able to witness by helping out in the kitchen much of the time. (including Sabbath)
( I know how non SDAs eat. That means there was the cooking of unclean meat. Either he was working in the kitchen all Sabbath or else he was listening to non SDA pastors  preach or both. I do not know if he was cooking bacon and sausage or not but it is probable. We are specifically counseled against cooking on Sabbath as well as going to listen to error.)

I understand when the H elder repeats  the SOP quote that says we are to mingle with others in order to reach them.
The problem is that the mingling that Jesus did was not compromising principle neither was He on the receiving end of the preaching of error. Is our mingling to include walking on Satan's ground knowing that he has set his net ? 

#3 I am showing others that SDAs are nice people.
( Or he was showing non SDAs how much we compromise the Sabbath. To prove to others that SDAs are nice people does that  mean we need to leave our church and work on Sabbath, join in ecumenical maneuvers, and listen to error ?  For this man apparently so.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 01, 2014, 06:47:15 AM
  http://www.slideshare.net/roebuckpastor/exposingspiritualformation-part1

  This is a very comprehensive study and documentation of Spiritual Formation.

  Derek Morris has a history of saying he has repented of SF, "you are misinformed" and then giving evidence that he is still attached to it.

In 2010 there were people giving Bible studies at his Forest Lake Church in Florida who were teaching that the law (10 commandment law) was done away with at the cross and to keep the Sabbath is simply to rest in Christ. Derek Morris gave no evidence of concern. It fits.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 01, 2014, 08:19:53 AM
 
I have not read, listened to, or observed more than a handful of Derek Morris' messages start to finish but I have been in and out of his messages  quite a bit. I have noticed other facets of the work of Derek Morris that raise life sized red flags. If he ever quotes the Spirit of  Prophecy I have not seen it. I just skimmed through his Radical Evidence series and could not find a single SOP quote in the 16 part series. And there is not a single indicator that these were not put out by Charles Stanley or Billy Graham. I would challenge any SDA to identify the speaker and his denomination from the content if they were to read the messages and not be told who wrote them. The trumpet is to give a certain, distinctive sound. It does not ! Secondly I have never read or observed where he lifted a standard or renounced sin of any kind in the church. Never does he address sin in the church or really anything in the church. That is most smooth and pleasing to people in general. No SOP, nothing distinctive  and no speaking against sin. Lastly, NONE of his messages include anything about prophecy. They are entirely void of it. Do we have a  prophetic message to give ? Lead our people into Jesuit spiritual exercises that numb the mind and then dumb down the message for the last days to where it is no longer even recognizable.


Just how many red flags does one need to cry "there's an enemy in the camp?"  Add these concerns mentioned here to a clear praising of and recommendation for our people to go to  Jesuit institutions  and literature and my question is this " Is the leadership in Israel brain dead?" It does not take a rocket scientist  or a theologian with many degrees to know that for an SDA leader to call the people to the Catholic church; to Jesuit exercises is Jesuit through and through. We have been conditioned and manipulated to be in denial....that just could not happen in Israel.

If Derek Morris is not an official member of the "Society of Jesus"  he is playing the part perfectly. Either way, he needs to go.

The response to all of these concerns by even a few of my friends is " but he is such an eloquent speaker." 
My response is " meaning what?"  Their response is a kin to saying every answer to any addition problem is 7 because I like that number. Try and live by that principle and see how far you get !  Do we need to go back to the play pen and get out the soft toys ? Do we need to erase the board and start over with 1+1 = 2 ? I know I am preaching largely to the choir and this may come across condescending but for some who may be reading " does present truth matter?" It does to God ! It does to me too !
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on September 01, 2014, 11:25:56 AM
I'm seeing a denial on our dear hope channel of the 3am...they are not giving it...  it is just God is love and love Jesus and that's all that matters. 

not just DM that is on there day and night
but BB that we know speaks in tongues and it's all over on you tube
but I heard SB recently deny that the RCC was anything important... they're just christians he said nothing more
then we have the prophecy buff  JP that does not believe in anything that SOP has given us

the list can go on and on...
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 01, 2014, 11:55:24 AM
I'm seeing a denial on our dear hope channel of the 3am...they are not giving it...  it is just God is love and love Jesus and that's all that matters. 

not just DM that is on there day and night
but BB that we know speaks in tongues and it's all over on you tube
but I heard SB recently deny that the RCC was anything important... they're just christians he said nothing more
then we have the prophecy buff  JP that does not believe in anything that SOP has given us

the list can go on and on...

Don't be shy. These men are saying and doing these things publically. I get  Derek Morris and Barry Black. Who is SB  Shawn Boonstra ? And JP ?  Jon Paulein of Spiritual Formation notoriety?  I am particularly curious about any prophecy buff that has that kind of issue with the SOP. It's time to start calling heretical "heretical."

Next year all hell is going to break lose in the church.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 01, 2014, 12:30:16 PM
 Jon Paulien like some others struggles with the idea that Catholicism could be what the Bible/SOP says  it is because he has met "some very nice priests." He says  that the anti Christ rises up from within the church. What does he mean by that ? From within what church ?

Almost every organization has some "nice" people in it. For  the life of me I do not understand why this is so complicated. Those "nice" people in the RCC are "nicely" deceived. Part of the reason for our existence as a church is to call "nice people" out of something that is not nice.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Tammy on September 01, 2014, 02:20:31 PM
Barry Black speaks in tongues?  Yes, I would also like to know who BB, SB & JP are.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 01, 2014, 05:56:29 PM
Barry Black speaks in tongues?  Yes, I would also like to know who BB, SB & JP are.

I'm pretty sure that I guessed correctly but Newbie can verify. BB is Barry Black. A few, VERY few, argue that he was not speaking in tongues but doing something else. Then that something else is exactly like speaking in tongues. It is always possible that the tape was doctored but what carries a lot of weight with me is the reaction of the "crowd." They reacted just like pentecostals do. Then in the same message he drops down on one knee, shivers and says "Wheww I FEEL the Holy Ghost!"  The crowd is standing and swaying with hands held up and waving, eyes, closed with some, etc..  It had all the makings of a Kenneth Copeland crusade.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Tammy on September 01, 2014, 07:42:40 PM
It had all the makings of a Kenneth Copeland crusade.

I was just going to say (before I got to this last sentence of yours), or ask you if you had it confused with that recent Kenneth Copeland deal where he was talking to the pope and that other guy that died on a motorcycle since then.  And KC was speaking in tongues. 

But I guess you're talking about seeing Barry Black.  And here I thought he was being used so powerfully by God in his position.  I know that I can't be surprised at anything anymore, but I continue to get surprised.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on September 01, 2014, 09:59:55 PM
Barry Black speaks in tongues?  Yes, I would also like to know who BB, SB & JP are.

I'm pretty sure that I guessed correctly but Newbie can verify. BB is Barry Black. A few, VERY few, argue that he was not speaking in tongues but doing something else. Then that something else is exactly like speaking in tongues. It is always possible that the tape was doctored but what carries a lot of weight with me is the reaction of the "crowd." They reacted just like pentecostals do. Then in the same message he drops down on one knee, shivers and says "Wheww I FEEL the Holy Ghost!"  The crowd is standing and swaying with hands held up and waving, eyes, closed with some, etc..  It had all the makings of a Kenneth Copeland crusade.
yes you guessed right on all accounts *smile*
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 02, 2014, 07:56:25 AM
 If you watch on You Tube the interview of Whitley Phipps and Barry Black at Oakwood you will see  an entirely different Whitley. Black is very controlled but Phipps is noticeable ticked off to the point of almost loosing self control.  It is a sad thing to see because when he sings he projects such joy. We must realize as SDAs  that a great shaking, a great collision,  and a very heated volcano is building up pressure. Blindness is the order of the day. Notice the following article written some time ago by one of our church leaders.

ďSome years ago, Arnold Toynbee declared that when the historian of a thousand years from now comes to write the history of our time, he will be preoccupied not with the Vietnam war, not with racial strife, but with what happened when for the first time Christianity and Buddhism began to penetrate one another deeply. This remark is profoundly interesting and, I believe, profoundly true. Christianity and Buddhism are penetrating one another, talking to one another, learning from one another. Even the stubborn old Catholic Church, in a flush of post-conciliar humility, feels that she has something to gain by sitting at the feet of the Zen roshi [Zen master] and imbibing the age-old wisdom of the East.Ē

-William Johnston, Christian Zen, p. 1


Notice how he says that the mixing of Christianity and (pagan) Buddhism  is "profoundly interesting" like in GOOD ?  Yikes ! Run ! Head for the hills!  He speaks of the "stubborn old Catholic church " like it was just some kind of nice old grandpa. He says that it is becoming humble and learning from "age-old wisdom of the east."  That's paganism. Johnston is missing it on every count. Catholicism is already age old eastern paganism and to say she is "stubborn" is the understatement of the year. The scales are so heavy that he can scarcely hold his head up.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 26, 2014, 03:08:49 PM
 Does anyone on the forum know a D. Ronald Neifert ?  He will be speaking at a church in Minnesota next month that we have been invited to. We have been to this little church several times over the years and they bring in good speakers. However, his intro makes one have concern.

 D.Ronald Neifert grew up in the SDA church. His family left the church but Ronald continued to work his way through Christian education. He feels that God has blessed him with the gift of teaching for 30 years. He is now transitioning into full time ministry through God's grace and direction. He has written and talked on the topics of worship, contemplative spirituality, and revival. " For him nothing matches the joy of sharing the good news with the Laodicean church and leading people into a permanent relationship with Jesus Christ, so they will be ready for his soon return."

I do not want to be too critical but to my thinking this takes on a note of concern. WDYT?

Upon further research it appears  that he talks against "contemplative spirituality."  That is good.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on September 26, 2014, 10:39:57 PM
Does anyone on the forum know a D. Ronald Neifert ?  He will be speaking at a church in Minnesota next month that we have been invited to. We have been to this little church several times over the years and they bring in good speakers. However, his intro makes one have concern.

 D.Ronald Neifert grew up in the SDA church. His family left the church but Ronald continued to work his way through Christian education. He feels that God has blessed him with the gift of teaching for 30 years. He is now transitioning into full time ministry through God's grace and direction. He has written and talked on the topics of worship, contemplative spirituality, and revival. " For him nothing matches the joy of sharing the good news with the Laodicean church and leading people into a permanent relationship with Jesus Christ, so they will be ready for his soon return."

I do not want to be too critical but to my thinking this takes on a note of concern. WDYT?

Upon further research it appears  that he talks against "contemplative spirituality."  That is good.

Don't know him, but please give us a report when you hear him.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: restoretruth on September 26, 2014, 10:58:58 PM
In the latest edition of the North Pacific Union Gleaner (Sept.22,2014), the editor wrote a short article called "Silence".

< http://gleanernow.com/news/2014/09/silence (http://gleanernow.com/news/2014/09/silence) >

Here is the last paragraph, written by the Gleaner Editor with Taylor's quote in red.

"The silence of God may not be a void or a heavenly refusal to answer, but rather an invitation to a deeper, richer walk ó an opportunity to understand his counsel to 'be still and know that I am God.' Barbara Brown Taylor observes the possibility that, 'Silence is as much a sign of Godís presence as of Godís absence ó that divine silence is not a vacuum to be filled but a mystery to be entered into, unarmed with words and undistracted by noise ó a holy of holies in which we too may be struck dumb by the power of the unsayable God.' 1

"In the deepest relationships, not a word need be spoken."

1. Barbara Brown Taylor, When God Is Silent (US: Cowley Publications, 1998).
___________________________________

Am I wrong to think that this is a subtle lead into encouraging  the "silence" of "contemplative prayer"? Barbara Brown Taylor is "an American Episcopal priest, professor, and theologian". She is a teacher of Spiritual Formation. I don't understand why we would direct anyone to her for spiritual understanding! Does anyone else see a problem here or am I over reacting?

It is sin that separates from God! If a person feels silence from God maybe it is because of not following God's will! Contemplative prayer is a false experience & has nothing to do with obedience to God's will!
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: Raven on September 27, 2014, 03:19:11 AM
It does sound very suspicious.  Where do we find evidence in Scripture that "Silence is as much a sign of Godís presence as of Godís absence"?  I'm not sure what that proves, since God is omnipresent.  While silence may be a prerequisite to good Bible study and meditation (not mindless meditation as is being promoted by the contemplative prayer proponents, but meditation on God, His word, and His creation), there is nothing mysterious or mystical about it.  It seems to me that they are making something out of nothing.  In all of our worship activities (prayer, Bible study, etc.), we are listening for the voice of God speaking to us, either by impressions from the Holy Spirit, doors opening (or closing), new enlightenment from His word, or counsel from godly friends, all of which must be compared to God's word.    Isa. 8:20.

I'm not even sure what they mean by "the silence of God."  God is never silent.  He speaks to us in a multitude of ways.  If we think He is silent, the fault may lie in ourselves, maybe by neglect of the means by which He normally chooses to communicate with us:  through a prayerful study of His word.

Why the editor of the Gleaner chose to quote from a known proponent of spiritual formation and all its baggage, is beyond me.  He could have quoted something much more profound from the pen of Ellen White.  She never even hints at any virtue in the kind of silence advocated by the proponents of contemplative prayer.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on September 27, 2014, 06:48:21 AM
valuable information... we need to be on our guard always

keep us informed and posted
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on September 27, 2014, 07:36:40 PM

 Seems to me that if God is silent that is an omen of something very bad. God was silent with king Saul and it led him to desperation, to the witch of Endor, and to death. While it may be important at times for US to be silent I don't think we want that of God.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on March 08, 2015, 07:46:42 AM
 

 I came across the following quote the other day when reading in Maranatha I have not seen it used in the SDA Spiritual Formation push but then I read little of their material.  Beware, ..... and be assured,.... that if they are not using and abusing the quote we can expect that they will be. Not to worry however. All who are not willingly blind and surface reading would see through this.

Those who have trained the mind to delight in spiritual exercises are the ones who can be translated and not be overwhelmed with the purity and transcendent glory of heaven. You may have a good knowledge of the arts, you may have an acquaintance with the sciences, you may excel in music and in penmanship, your manners may please your associates, but what have these things to do with a preparation for heaven? What have they to do to prepare you to stand before the tribunal of God? 275 {CCh 186.3}

As we know the spiritual exercises that Mrs. White was referring to are entirely different than many of those exercised in the SF movement. This is another example of how error can and often does run up very close to truth.  I can just see a new book put out by SDA SF pushers with this quote in large letters.  Would not "Transcendental Meditation"  cozy up perfectly with this quote. No, I am not implying that there is anything wrong withy this quote. Like all the SOP it is rich in meaning. The point is how easily error can slide up next to truth.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on March 09, 2015, 03:57:58 PM
correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that ANYTHING that trys to blank the mind would be dangerous and leave the door open for demonic en-trance...  repetition is a form of hypnosis and blanking the mind

correct meditation IS to think about real things and exercise the mind about the details of the cross
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on March 10, 2015, 07:13:54 AM

Interesting quote in the book Great Controversy. The context is that this happened when there was a delay in the coming of Christ in 1844.

  " About this time, fanaticism began to appear. Some who had professed to be zealous believers in the message, rejected the Word of God as the one infallible guide, and, claiming  to be led by the Spirit, gave themselves up to the control of their own feelings, impressions, and imaginations. There were some who manifested a blind and bigoted zeal, denouncing all who would not sanction their course. Their fanatical ideas and exercises met with no sympathy from the great body of Adventists; yet they served to bring reproach upon the cause of truth.  {GC88 394.2}
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on March 27, 2015, 01:56:40 PM

 For any forum, viewer that might be in the vicinity Dave Fiedler, author of the book on Spiritual Formation , "Tremble" there will be a Sabbath seminar with Dave as the speaker on April 18, 2015 at the Le Center, Mn. SDA church in Le Center, Mn.

Then on July 25, 2015 Rick Howard will be the speaker at the same location. They are all day seminars with haystacks for lunch. It is a free seminar of course and there is free over night stay at the church Friday night.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on May 10, 2016, 09:39:35 AM
I notice in this weeks Sabbath school Lesson " Lord of Jews and Gentiles" on Sunday's lesson that Jon Paulien was quoted. Since Paulien is a Spiritual Formation guru that says something about the blindness of the man/men that would quote his work. I do not know if what Paulien said in the quote is accurate but I do know that his work is very problematic and for the quarterly contributor and editors to miss this along with their quoting of the NIV indicates a serious blindness. Either their work is that of the Lord or it is bending and trending toward deception. Even if the quote were accurate it places the name before the people in the form of an endorsement. Is there no (true) prophet in Israel ? Yes there is ! If she did not speak to this I would rather not hear from the prophet Paulien.

When I read the question at the bottom of the page I wonder what might be implied. We must be discerning. The question may be perfectly valid. It may also imply something else.

In what ways might your expectations of what you expect from God be too narrow ?

You see self hypnosis and Catholic exercises promising some new experience is all to common now in our church. We are also told twice in Maranatha that false healings will bring SDAs to the test. These are/will both be said to be the fulfillment of a broader expectation of what we may expect from God.

Some will say that it does not matter who is quoted in the quarterly as long as the quote is true. I disagree because it to some extent endorses the author of the quote... secondly .... is the quote even accurate ? ...and lastly...  true or not, to what end may this direct our people, howbeit subtly ? I do not want to make too much out of this however, given where Paulien and others are and given what Scripture says about, if it were possible the very elect would be deceived, I do not take this lightly either.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: ColporteurK on May 10, 2016, 09:43:25 AM
In Wednesday's Lesson " Crumbs From the Table"  there are two quotes from - " The Gospel of Matthew: A Socio -Rhetorical Commentary."  Not sure why but the name of the author " Craig S Keener" is not listed following either quote.  Craig S Keener is an evangelical that graduated from Duke. Regarding his commentary on Matthew the following is stated, " This commentary on Matthew offers a unique interpretive approach on the socio historical context of the gospel etc.... "  Also it is stated, " His approach recaptures the full " shock effect" of Jesus teachings in their original context and to make his point with greater narrative artistry."

I am concerned with leading our people to an evangelical who uses so much artistry and interpretation. He no doubt means well and may have some accurate views but how does he relate to the message for the end ?

He was invited by Zonderman to do an NIV Application Series on Revelation and feels it is God calling him to do so. You may read some of his commentary via google and watch his short video regarding his later commentary on Revelation. He seems like a very nice and sincere man. The question however, comes up again, "is there no prophet in Israel" and "does he truly have a correct interpretation of Matthew and Revelation ? It would be hard to imagine as an evangelical he sees this correctly.

According to Wiki , Keener" is a North America academic and professor of NT at Asbury Theological seminary." "He was professor at Palmer Theological Seminary for 15 years." " He was ordained in an African-American Baptist church in 1991." " He is the current editor of the Bulletin for Biblical Research."

Duke is one of the university that Jesuits recommend their people go to. I could not in my brief research find if Asbury or Palmer use the historical approach to the study of prophecy but it is unlikely that they do.

His take on the MOB is a lot like the JWs. At least he does not think it is a tattoo or a computer chip but he says it is the way we live or don't live. While this is true it is far too general.
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: newbie on May 10, 2016, 09:06:36 PM
thanks for this information...
we have to be soooooo careful these days
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: GraceVessel on May 11, 2016, 02:51:47 PM
The basis upon which you accept information ... or better said... validate it determines how you "process the information".

Case in point.  Someone says Christ is here and everyone gets "healed" in a hospital.  Evidence wise, you cannot "gainsay" the fact that the people are healed.  The problem is they are physically healed, not spiritually healed.

So the ONLY determining factor is.. does it agree with scripture?  What does God say about it?  All your senses say otherwise... you believe the bible as the source of truth? or your senses...

Which scriptures will come to mind if you have not committed them to memory or have not studied them so that God can bring them to you mind at that time?

The majority of the world (and of the church proper (all faiths))... will choose the tangible senses as proof.

These are scary times that we live in.  I just saw a commercial of a whale coming out of the floor in a gym and splashing... looks real (it aint but it looks real). 

Food for thought...

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Spiritual Formation
Post by: V. Hahn on May 12, 2016, 06:00:16 AM
The basis upon which you accept information ... or better said... validate it determines how you "process the information".

Case in point.  Someone says Christ is here and everyone gets "healed" in a hospital.  Evidence wise, you cannot "gainsay" the fact that the people are healed.  The problem is they are physically healed, not spiritually healed.

So the ONLY determining factor is.. does it agree with scripture?  What does God say about it?  All your senses say otherwise... you believe the bible as the source of truth? or your senses...

Which scriptures will come to mind if you have not committed them to memory or have not studied them so that God can bring them to you mind at that time?

The majority of the world (and of the church proper (all faiths))... will choose the tangible senses as proof.

These are scary times that we live in.  I just saw a commercial of a whale coming out of the floor in a gym and splashing... looks real (it aint but it looks real). 

Food for thought...

with kind regards,

Gracevessel

How true, GraceVessel.  These will be the overwhelming deceptions that will drive the whole world into Satan's camp.  Only as we stand on God's Word and have the Holy Spirit will we be able to withstand being deceived with the rest of the world.