Uncomfortable with Justification?

[Jim]

I think Sanctification is great! I think the concept of being "Set apart" is wonderful. I think that concept of "Christian growth" as we see in Heb 5 and in Peter's "ladder" is great.

Bob, is that all sanctification is to you... being "set apart"?

[BobRyan]

Hi Jim -

Actually it is all three of the statements I made on it -- not just the first.

in Christ,

Bob

[colporteur]

Hi Jim -

Actually it is all three of the statements I made on it -- not just the first.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob;

Will those tranlsated (saved) when Jesus comes be sanctified to the point of not sinning even by a single thought?

[BobRyan]

Yes - otherwise what will they do since in Rev 15 the sanctuary service is ended just before the start of the 7 last plagues and in 1John 2:1 we are told "these things I write to you that you sin not - and if anyone sins we HAVE an ADVOCATE with the FAther".

in Paul's letter to Timothy Christ is the "one Mediator between God and man".

When that ministry ends - there can be no more "Advocate with the Father" work going on to address the case of "if anyone sins".

I thought we all agreed on this.

in Christ,

Bob

[Ed Sutton]

I considered hebrews chapter 1, and looked up in a folio views search (EGW CD ROM ) -  sancti* implant* nature & got 13 hits.

The nature of the work of sanctifying intelligent thinking beings with a conscience and will, is different that sanctifying real estate or an item of clothing, ot tool.

Both are cleansed and as well- set apart for holy use, but the living thinking person must walk in unity with God; because God is a consuming fire to sin in His unvailed presence. 

Sanctification for a person = the work of justification (propitiation),  plus ,  sanctification (unity with God) - this spiritual state of unity requires the implanting of Christ's nature within to accomplish that + coupled with the cooperation and perseverence of the human being both justified and sanctified.

If the setting apart for holy use is all it would take then Christ dying on the cross was enough - and no more needed.   Scripture does not stop there.  Justification brings pardon and life, red heifer symbolized cleansing (propitiation ), power to come to Christ & become His Own. Sanctification is unbroken continued justification in it' s nature - it is the continuation of the process that requires the intelligent cheerful wholeharted cooperation of the human recipent with God.  This is where understanding the Bible's phrases of "Fear God", fear the Lord, and all such derivations - better explain sanctification - refereing to the process of unifying the human with God - comes into play.  Anyone in Scripture from any country could have been described as fearing God or not, but only the nation of the hebrews could say that God had denominated them as His organized nation of people with a name (lable).

If dying on Calvary was all - why these texts ?
Romans 4:25  Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1st Corinthians 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

if the process of salvation was complete when he died, why are we saved much more by His life.  (Think of His life within a person as relates to that person's salvation on a present tense view - as well as a past tense & future tense )

Christ IN YOU = the hope of glory.  Not just the label that you belong to Christ.  That's one reason for the investigative judgement, with Jesus being proud of someone and testifying for them, or ashamed and unable to vouch for them .

May I suggest looking up the phrase "not saved until" .

Justification gets YOU out of sin,  Sanctification gets SINFULNESS (carnal heart) out of you, and puts on "the new man".  They are part of the same process, a starting and a continuing unto spiritual completion - then sealing - just before Second Coming physical glorifying.

[Larry Lyons]

Ed, that is an excellent post. Thank you for that. It's a keeper. Could you say a little more about the signiicance of the red heifer? If I understand correctly, it was the rarest and most valuable of the sacrificial animals.

[newbie]

I agree Ed... nice post...  it goes along with ch. 14 of gospel of John. 

[Ed Sutton]

So I kept it under the character limit length AND got to the point in an understandable way .   

You realize if this gets out my reputaion is shot.

I will look to see if there is a topic or thread about the red heifer around here somewhere, if not I will start one.

Looking at the red heifer & brazen serpent probably ought to go together.

Is there a spell checker function that could be added - I need help 

[Ed Sutton]

ok started it under new topic in theology > Cross > Christ-Cross-Sanctuary-Symbols-Messianic Prophecy

will post research about red heifer there.

[Robert Parker]

It is interesting that we often disfellowship people who break the 7th commandment, but I've never known on anyone who was disfellowshipped for breaking the 10th.  I have a feeling that our list of sins (most offensive versus least offensive) would read somewhat differently that God's.  I say that because of the text that lists pride as the first in a list of 7 sins the Lord hates.  Prov. 6:16-19.

How can we dis-fellowship someone for coveting Raven? It does not always show up. I once had someone tell me that we should diis-fellowship someone who commits adultery for looking at a woman with lust. Can someone give me the recipe for knowing what a man is thinking?

[Robert Parker]

No.

I am sanctified ... or ..... set apart to be used by God. But, although I am set apart .... I do slip and become selfish.

I do fail.  But I am not sure that being "set apart" means that I will alway succeed. I don't know. We don't slip in and out of God's good graces like a yo-yo. I think that when we fail .... we are still in His good Graces and considered in the family of "set apart". And those set apart ask forgiveness when they become selfish and miss the mark.

Not sure if any of this makes sense to you?

Are you, then, perfect already? Being set apart (sanctified) is only the first step on the long road of sanctification. We are not fully sanctified in an instant (I believe that this was an old Methodist teaching against which Ellen White spoke), so that we just have to KEEP it. Sanctification will continue (if we are willing to receive it) through out our lives. Sanctification lasting a life time does not mean that it will necessarily take a life time to overcome sin: that will have to be accomplished before probation closes and we will be living without a Mediator. Overcoming sin, unlike sanctification, can happen in an instant and then maintained throughout our lives by continually walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh 9according to Romans 8.)

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Bob;

Will those translated (saved) when Jesus comes be sanctified to the point of not sinning even by a single thought?

I couldn't resist answering this question to Bob. The answer is YES! Cp. But sanctification will continue on for eternity (even after we have ceased to sin) if I understand it right.

Robert

[Raven]

How can we dis-fellowship someone for coveting Raven? It does not always show up. I once had someone tell me that we should diis-fellowship someone who commits adultery for looking at a woman with lust. Can someone give me the recipe for knowing what a man is thinking?

I wasn't suggesting that we disfellowship someone for coveting.  I was merely pointing out that we often look down our noses at those who commit the "grosser" sins, and ignore, for the most part, the weightier sins (at least in God's eyes), of pride, ego; and the attitude exhibited by the Pharisee who went up to the temple to pray.  Sabbath breaking was visited with the death penalty under the theocracy of Israel, but in this day and age we're not even sure what Sabbath breaking looks like anymore.  And I've never seen anyone disfellowshipped for that, either.

[GraceVessel]

Robert,

I am not going to "measure  myself" on whether or not I can "be perfect" and experience Sanctification... its an inside looking out thing.. not outside looking in (measuring someone else's "STATUS") as a believer... Jesus knows those that are His.. and that includes ALL HIS CHILDREN... I consider myself a child of God and am in a continued walk to make my calling and election sure, and I have assurance that He (Jesus) will present me faultless before his throne... namely my goal is not sanctification... my goal is to keep my motivation, mind, and life behavior (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) - focused on the NT Sanctuary and my great High Priest that has provided ample gifts (grace) to be furnished unto good works... thats imputed AND imparted.

I'll trust in His merits.. not my own.

Best regards,

Gracevessel

[God is Good]

Yes. Whatever God needs to do for and in those that love Him ... He will do. I can sit back and rest in His promises to me ... a sinner saved by Grace.