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Author Topic: The Atonement -- What is it all about?  (Read 3512 times)
Slingshot
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« Reply #230 on: July 01, 2010, 07:07:06 AM »

The concepts on final punishment and the trivializing of sin can also be found in occultic works such as "A Course In Miracles".  This is a famous course in New Age thought which is the result of spirit channeling.

Here is a link to the online course talking about final punishment:

http://courseinmiracles.com/urtext/chapter_2/section_6.htm

Here is an excerpt which sounds similar to the quotes from the MIT folks:

The Final Judgment is one of the greatest threat concepts in man's perception. This is only because he does not understand it. Judgment is not an essential attribute of God. Man brought judgment into being only because of the Separation.

------------------
That is astonishing close to the idea of Maxwell, that judgment is only something that man brings on himself, rather than something which God does.

Here is a direct quote attributed to Jesus but is really a channeled demonic spirit talking:

The Last Judgment is generally thought of as a procedure undertaken by God. Actually, it will be undertaken solely by man, with My help
----------------------

That is really frightening. This is so similar to what Maxwellians seem to be teaching. It is man that brings judgment on Himself, maybe with a little help from God?

Correct me Slingshot if I am wrong or misquoting.

We want to hear from you what you believe about the final judgment.

Stan

Stan:

I am sorry that I have not been able to reply. I missed a eight out of ten working days a couple of weeks back and my time out was unplanned. My schedule has been turned topsy turvy and I have been putting in twelve hour days routinely. I don't know when I will have time to reply in detail.

I will post my views on the destruction of the wicked when I have time.

I can briefly say that you're beating a straw man to some extent.

Neither Maxwell nor I believe in the MIT. So essays attacking the MIT aren't really relevant.

Additionally, you keep quoting scriptures involving God's wrath as if they are dispositive. I agree that people will feel God's wrath. I just disagree with you about what God's wrath means. Romans 1 is clearest explanation of God's wrath in Scripture and Romans 1 indicates that God's wrath occurs when He gives the unrepentent sinner over. I've explained this very clearly in my posts. What Jesus felt on the Cross was not "painful punishment" for sin but the Father giving him up -- "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

This view does not trivialize sin. I think the view that sin is only a legal problem that requires blood payment to an angry God not only truly trivializes sin but paints a horrible picture of God.

When I have time, I will post a link to an article by Tim Jennings which tracks well with my understanding of the destruction of the wicked.

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V. Hahn
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« Reply #231 on: July 01, 2010, 08:13:45 AM »

I'm sorry you have been through such a hard time, Slingshot.  I hope you are feeling much better now.

When you find the time, can you please explain the Maxwellian view of punishment and atonement in comparison with the account of Jesus' death in the Desire of Ages?

Here are a few quotes, but a person would get a better idea of what is said by reading at least Chapters 74 and 78...

Quote
And now the Lord of glory was dying, a ransom for the race. In yielding up His precious life, Christ was not upheld by triumphant joy. All was oppressive gloom. It was not the dread of death that weighed upon Him. It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity. Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity must perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help. {DA 752.4}

Quote
Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}

Quote
The spotless Son of God hung upon the cross, His flesh lacerated with stripes; those hands so often reached out in blessing, nailed to the wooden bars; those feet so tireless on ministries of love, spiked to the tree; that royal head pierced by the crown of thorns; those quivering lips shaped to the cry of woe. And all that He endured--the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face--speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise. He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee.
                                                                            756
He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

Reading the death of our Savior written by the pen of inspiration is so powerful that it is hard to describe in a few quotes. 
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Soli Deo Gloria
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« Reply #232 on: August 09, 2010, 12:20:19 PM »

Slingshot,

I hope you are OK. Are you still actively trying to prepare a reply to the above concerns?

Stan
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Robert Parker
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« Reply #233 on: August 09, 2010, 06:38:50 PM »

We have debated this topic much here and really didn't get anywhere... people came with their beliefs and left with the same beliefs.  

We tread on dangerous ground when we try and define the character of God and try and fit Him into our understanding.  


That right Newbie!

 God's Law is the expression of His character. Jesus came to magnify that Law and to make it honorable. His life and death were a perfect demonstration of God's character  With Him living in us through the Holy Spirit, we cannot help reflecting His character. Thus, by LIVING it we do not have to try and explain it.

Robert
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Robert Parker
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« Reply #234 on: August 09, 2010, 06:45:09 PM »

Funny thing, the Scripture has no problem defining God's character:  "God is love."  I John 4:8  To go beyond that, or to come short of that, is to tread on dangerous ground.  One of our problems as finite human beings is that we sometimes think we can define what love is better than Scripture.

Amen Raven! The way to explain Love is to DEMONSTRATE IT. No one can argue with that. We just REFLECT what God is like when we turn our face mirror to Him. I remember, as children, that we would turn a mirror so that the sun would shine in it, and then manipulate the mirror so the sun would shine on someone else's face.

Robert
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Soli Deo Gloria
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« Reply #235 on: September 03, 2010, 01:00:29 AM »

Stan:

I am sorry that I have not been able to reply. I missed a eight out of ten working days a couple of weeks back and my time out was unplanned. My schedule has been turned topsy turvy and I have been putting in twelve hour days routinely. I don't know when I will have time to reply in detail.

I will post my views on the destruction of the wicked when I have time.

I can briefly say that you're beating a straw man to some extent.

Neither Maxwell nor I believe in the MIT. So essays attacking the MIT aren't really relevant.

Additionally, you keep quoting scriptures involving God's wrath as if they are dispositive. I agree that people will feel God's wrath. I just disagree with you about what God's wrath means. Romans 1 is clearest explanation of God's wrath in Scripture and Romans 1 indicates that God's wrath occurs when He gives the unrepentent sinner over. I've explained this very clearly in my posts. What Jesus felt on the Cross was not "painful punishment" for sin but the Father giving him up -- "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

This view does not trivialize sin. I think the view that sin is only a legal problem that requires blood payment to an angry God not only truly trivializes sin but paints a horrible picture of God.

When I have time, I will post a link to an article by Tim Jennings which tracks well with my understanding of the destruction of the wicked.



Slingshot,

I hope you are doing better. We are still looking forward to your replies to the above and your understanding of the destruction of the wicked.

Stan
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Soli Deo Gloria
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« Reply #236 on: September 03, 2010, 01:10:06 AM »

In case Slingshot does not reply, he mentions Tim Jennings website and how he was going to link to it.

Here is the link I believe he was referring to with regard to Tim Jennings view of the wrath and anger of God

http://comeandreason.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=285:gods-wrath-and-anger&catid=64:print&Itemid=90

Stan
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Soli Deo Gloria
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« Reply #237 on: September 03, 2010, 01:45:34 PM »

Here is a better link which describes Tim Jennings view of final punishment of the wicked:

http://comeandreason.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121:the-question-of-punishment-part-iii&catid=52:tims-blog-archive&Itemid=70

 I believe this is Slingshot's view as well. (Let us know Slingshot  smiley )

What do you think? Does Dr Jennings (a psychiatrist by profession, and apparently a very good one based on other web research), make his case?

Stan
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« Reply #238 on: September 03, 2010, 04:59:04 PM »

I do not agree with Dr. Tim Jennings but he is a very intelligent man.
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Ed Sutton
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« Reply #239 on: September 03, 2010, 07:34:27 PM »

SlingShot sorry to hear you were sick or injured.

 How are you now ? 

 What happened if you don't mind my asking ?
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